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From "Vincent Hennebert" <vhenneb...@gmail.com>
Subject Re: space-start and space-end for block-areas
Date Tue, 01 Aug 2006 10:14:58 GMT
> > Ah yes, so this formula comes from the statement in 7.10.7 (BTW, in
> > case
> > of mixed writing modes / reference-orientations this statement is wrong;
> I don't think so. FOs like block-container create a viewport/reference
> pair. The viewport-area does the rotation, the reference-area is already
> in the same rotation as its immediate children.

Well, again I may be wrong, but: in section 4.2.3 we have the following:
"the content-rectangle of an area uses the inline-progression-direction
and block-progression-direction of that area; but the border-rectangle,
padding-rectangle, and allocation-rectangle use the directions of its
parent area. Thus the edges designated for the content-rectangle may not
correspond to the same-named edges on the padding-, border-, and

So if we want to put, say, some Japanese in an English text, the main
flow would be in lr-tb writing-mode, and we would put an
fo:block-container with a tb-rl writing-mode. The block-container would
generate a viewport-reference pair of areas with the following mapping:

    border-rectangle, padding-rectangle, allocation-rectangle
	before-edge    top
	after-edge     bottom
	start-edge     left
	end-edge       right
	before-edge    right
	after-edge     left
	start-edge     top
	end-edge       bottom

Note that in section 4.2.2, it is stated that "the start-edge and
end-edge of the content-rectangle of [the reference-area] are parallel
to the start-edge and end-edge of the content-rectangle of [the

If we set a start-indent for the fo:block-container, this would be the
space between the left-edge (start-edge) of the flow's content-rectangle
and the left-edge (after-edge) of the block-container's


> > I thought they introduced the allocation-rectangle just for dealing with
> > that).
> > But then, the formula of 4.4.1 may be (greatly) simplified:
> >     xa = start-intrusion-adjustment
> > If it is so complicated, is it because the formula (J1) may not always
> > be true?
> I don't think it's that complicated. The spec just tries to explain the
> relationships of the various properties and traits. I don't think all of
> these statements are meant to be used as literal formulas. I think we
> rarely, if at all, have to deal with the space-start trait, for example.
> Right now, we shift in by start-indent and out again by padding-start
> and border-start. That's all that's necessary to paint everything. Of

Of course, but independantly of how this is actually implemented, I'd
like to make sure I understand the formulae rightly.

> > Well, I think I get it now. It's frustrating to spend so much time
> > in
> > just trying to understand a spec...
> Imagine how I felt in the first half of 2005 while getting up to speed
> with the mean details of the spec. It's just normal you feel that way.
> If you look in the archives, you'll see that you're not alone. A feeble
> consolation, I know.

Yes, but still one. This seems to confirm that the problem relies in the
spec, not in my brain ;-)

> > Thank you, Jeremias.
> > Vincent
> >
> >
> > PS: There seems to be a problem, then, with the third paragraph of the
> > attached fo file. IIUC it should be placed 1 cm right from the black
> > border. And if I remove the start-indent="0" attribute from the fo:block
> > it should be placed 2 cm right. WDYT?
> Yes, that's what's happening and what should be happening. I don't see
> the problem, sorry.

Well, with my working copy I get the following results:
When start-indent is explicitly set to "0cm" for the third paragraph,
the text is placed 1 cm /left/ from the black border:

When start-indent is unset, the text is placed 2 cm left from the black

Same result with Fop 0.92beta. My working copy is up-to-date with the
repository and contains no local modification. I wonder where is the
problem. May I ask which results do others get?


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