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From Markus Weimer <wei...@apache.org>
Subject Re: [DISCUSS] Apache TVM Graduation
Date Wed, 02 Sep 2020 15:16:13 GMT
Just to echo and expand on my comment on the vote thread: From my
perspective as a mentor, TVM is ready to be a top level project.

I base this assessment not on any particular issue, but on how the
community conducts itself: Everything is discussed out in the open,
(mirrored) on mailing lists and the community works towards and
usually achieves consensus, with [VOTE] threads as a last resort. And
where issues come up, the community generally addresses them swiftly
to the best of its abilities. This thread is a good example of that.

In terms of genesis and prior setup, TVM resembles a lot of new OSS
projects: Born on GitHub, with development and communications infra
provided (for free) by various commercial services. Integrating this
with the requirements of the ASF to hold the ground truth and paper
trail on Foundation infra is challenging. TVM has done a fantastic job
making that happen and to find creative ways to maintain community
engagement during this transition. I believe some of the approaches
used (e.g. which notices from GitHub to channel to what mailing list)
can be used by other projects to bridge this chasm.

Markus

On Tue, Sep 1, 2020 at 2:30 PM Tianqi Chen <tqchen@apache.org> wrote:
>
> Thanks Justin and Ming for the followup feedback about the
> https://tvmconf.org/, which I believe we have collectively work to resolve
> the issue.
>
> Would love to hear more feedbacks wrt to the current summary of the state
> in below and suggestions for further improvements.
>
> TQ
>
> Thanks Justin, Henry, Dave, Ming, Matt for helpful feedbacks.
> >
> > Personally I find the current conversation a good living example of the
> > Apache way for consensus building :)
> > Thanks to the helpful feedback we have resolved several issues.
> >
> > In order to clarify the situation, please allow me to dissect and
> > summarize the current situation.
> > There are a few categories of topics (related to the Apache way) this
> > thread have touched so far:
> >
> > Compliance
> >
> > Compliance is what every project is required to do. These policies are set
> > to protect Apache’s brand,
> > encourage community over code and set a common foundation for the
> > projects. Usually a compliance is
> > well documented (as per-apache way, what is not documented did not
> > happen). The TVM PPMC has been diligently
> > upholding compliances, including, but not limited to
> >
> > - T0 Project website hosted at ASF https://tvm.apache.org/.
> > - T1 Produce apache release, no cat-X code.
> > - T2 No advertising non-release items as Apache release.
> > - T3 Protect Apache brand, working with trademark to resolve branding
> > concerns.
> > - T4 Clearly marks third party artifacts and makes sure they comply with
> > trademark policies.
> > - T5 Open development: everyone happens (also) happens on dev@
> > - T6 Consider all forms of contributions for committer nomination.
> > - T7 Make sure release processes are clearly documented, reproducible by
> > any committers.
> >
> > Customary
> >
> > There are also a few topics that touch on what many Apache(incubating)
> > projects do, but are not (yet) strict compliance.
> > The TVM PPMC could improve on. Specifically, the following item:
> >
> > - K0 Usually an incubator project produces three apache releases, with
> > multiple release managers.
> >   So far TVM PPMC produced two apache releases by one manager (many PPMC
> > members helped on the two releases).
> >
> > Community
> >
> > Finally, the “community over code” is one of the most important factors of
> > the Apache way.
> > The TVM PPMC has been working very hard to foster a healthy, diverse and
> > independent community,
> > and will continue to do so.
> >
> > - C0: Consider all forms of contributions as merit.
> > - C1: Encourage community diversity by only nominating people from
> > different organizations.
> > - C2: Actively discusses, and brings in new committers from diverse
> > backgrounds.
> >         The community grows healthily  and is quite vibrant.
> >
> > Concerns
> >
> > - X0: Right now, Justin and Ming rightfully point out that while the TVM
> > community has fulfilled T7, we could improve in K0.
> > - X1: The subdomain name (discuss.tvm.ai) is something that we would like
> > to work with trademarks@ to clarify.
> >       According to the current policy, the apache trademark cannot be used
> > “when the content of that domain is related
> >       to any related software products or services”. The subdomain is not
> > providing any software product or deriving services
> >       related to tvm. The TVM PPMC would be more than happy to follow
> > trademark’s suggestion.
> >
> > Please let me know if the summary could be improved in any way, and we
> > would also welcome more feedback.
> >
> > Thank you!
> > TQ
> >
> > On Fri, Aug 28, 2020 at 9:08 PM Tianqi Chen <tqchen@apache.org> wrote:
> >
> >> I would like to revisit a bit about the release topic to shed light about
> >> the release process.
> >> The TVM PPMC has always been focusing on producing high quality releases.
> >>
> >> - The project has produced five major (non-apache) releases prior joining
> >> Apache
> >> - While most incubator projects start with a DISCLAIMER-WIP, the TVM
> >> community strives to keep the release quality high and uses the DISCLAIMER
> >>    in the beginning of the first release[1]. The first release contains a
> >> few rough edges and gets resolved very quickly thanks to the feedback from
> >> Justin and other IPMC members.
> >>    The second release is super smooth.
> >> - Multiple PMC members work together to generate these releases.
> >>
> >> TQ
> >> ----
> >> - [1]
> >> https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/ad19634352f97d0a5b2bec866bcdecd556ca414cc6d4487b2282ce10%40%3Cgeneral.incubator.apache.org%3E
> >>
> >> On Fri, Aug 28, 2020 at 8:54 PM Tianqi Chen <tqchen@apache.org> wrote:
> >>
> >>> We have also talked to Apache INFRA about the use of the
> >>> https://ci.tvm.ai/ due to the need of special setups in terms of GPU
> >>> based resources etc.
> >>>
> >>> So far we have received warm help from the INFRA and they are super
> >>> helpful in helping setting up CI hooks so that the community can enjoy quick
> >>> development with the volunteer maintained CI. Running and serving the
> >>> community well, we would certainly happy to use a different name if asked
by
> >>> the trademark.
> >>>
> >>> TQ
> >>>
> >>> On Fri, Aug 28, 2020 at 8:49 PM Tianqi Chen <tqchen@apache.org> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> tvmlang.org was an old url by the project that eventually got
> >>>> deprecated at some time point, it now redirects to the
> >>>> https://tvm.apache.org/
> >>>>
> >>>> The PMC makes sure to redirect to the static Apache project when
> >>>> possible for official project related information.
> >>>>
> >>>> Due to the mechanism of the discourse website(need an active server),
> >>>> and CI (tracking is not used and is removed). It is necessary to use
a
> >>>> standalone domain name
> >>>> - These domains are maintained by volunteers from TVM PMC members
> >>>> (tqchen, yizhi, haichen, jroesch, ziheng, lianminzheng, zhiics, masahi,
> >>>> thierry from different organizations)
> >>>>   as a thirdparty service to help the community.
> >>>> - Given that these domains are not used to represent the official
> >>>> apache project website(no confusion), and the usage voted by the community
> >>>> [2],
> >>>>   the PPMC believes it is fair to use these domains to serve the
> >>>> community, just like the use of thirdparty conference website for some
of
> >>>> the ASF projects' developer conferences.
> >>>> - Of course we would love to get approval/feedback from the trademark.
> >>>> We have started a trademark thread on the community discourse forum
domain
> >>>> [1],
> >>>>    and would be more than happy to follow up the guidance of the
> >>>> trademark discussion.
> >>>>
> >>>> Again the hopefully outcome is not to discourage the use of these
> >>>> services. The PMC members strive to make sure that these thirdparty
> >>>> services are sustained,
> >>>> and remain "non-blocker" even when they go down.
> >>>>
> >>>> - Introduce multiple volunteers from different organizations in the
PMC
> >>>> to do the work.
> >>>> - Make sure the messages are backed up to mail-list.
> >>>> - In the case of CI, have a clear workflow(JenkinsFile) and docker
> >>>> source so that any committer could have spin up CI when necessary.
> >>>> - Every development activities (also) happens on dev@
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> TQ
> >>>>
> >>>> ---
> >>>> - [1]
> >>>> https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/rd23004bf526975fceebd1b0bae7120dc1935bb61b7cdd8243fbc36dd%40%3Ctrademarks.apache.org%3E
> >>>> - [2]
> >>>> https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/c34b728f01d1030146594e47e0706cd1990ed731d06e3c179b7d501a%40%3Cdev.tvm.apache.org%3E
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On Fri, Aug 28, 2020 at 8:20 PM Justin Mclean <justin@classsoftware.com>
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> Hi,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Sorry my mistake, I meant to say tvm.ai not tvm.io, but as I said
> >>>>> subdomains on tvm.ai are not redirecting. For instance discuss.tvm.ai
> >>>>> stays as it is. Other sub-domains include ci.tvm.ai , tracking.tvm.ai
> >>>>> and docs.tvm.ai that I’ve found. There might be others, of those
> >>>>> four, only docs redirects.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I notice that forum [1] also states "Open source community on end
to
> >>>>> end stack for deploying deep learning workloads to hardware backends
> >>>>> tvmlang.org.” Who controls tvmlang.org? It not clear on that page
> >>>>> that this is a space for discussion about an Apache project.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Thanks,
> >>>>> Justin
> >>>>>
> >>>>> 1. https://discuss.tvm.ai
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> >>>>>
> >>>>>

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