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From Justin Mclean <>
Subject Re: Default project guidelines
Date Mon, 10 Sep 2018 08:07:53 GMT

Little off topic but I’ll bite. The context was that this is about giving a default set
of rules to podlings so that they don’t copy and past other projects guidelines that are
not in line with the Apache Way.

> In the case of on- and off-boarding members of the privileged ranks (which
> is about merit AND - though many ignore that aspect - personal likes and
> dislikes about the prospective member), this 'must have' leads more to
> lengthy threads and alienation of contributors, resulting in resentments to
> collaborate for the greater good than majority voting.

I’m actually slightly more concerned by majority voting as in extreme cases it means who/what's
popular wins and the voices of minorities can be ignored and/or overruled. It requires less
discussion but I’m not sure that those left out feel any better about that.

> Every time this 'we *must have* consensus about who gets onboarded' topic -
> in whatever way -  is brought forward, my heart cringes as it will bring
> forth the voices that smell like dictatorship. Must have consensus can't go
> with dissenting viewpoints, majority voting can.

Perhaps you have a different view on consensus than I do, in my mind it doesn’t mean unanimous
agreement and is far from one person making the decisions.

Sometimes consensus is easy and sometimes takes hard work to reach a point where all people
can agree it’s the way forward and have all voices taken into consideration. [1] It more
about the process [2] before the vote than the vote itself, in fact the outcome of the vote
should just be a mere formality by the time it is called.

Most things don't require a formal vote with the exception of releases and voting in committer
or PMC members, and even then I know of at least one project doesn’t use votes to grant
committership. Each project sets it own criteria re committership and IMO some set their bar
too high and others overlook slow continual contributions but that’s a different issue.
(And one which the incubator has little say in other than for it’s podlings.)

If someone with ancestral ASF knowledge of which form of voting should be used when voting
in committers/PMC members contributes to this thread and it is majority voting I have no issues
with using it as the default. In practice I think it going to amount to the same thing i.e.
if someone votes -1 with a good reason it will be taken onboard and discussed and hopefully
a way forward found.


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