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From Ted Dunning <ted.dunn...@gmail.com>
Subject Re: The state of Sirona
Date Mon, 17 Apr 2017 06:19:41 GMT
Retaining trademarks isn't required, especially if they aren't attached to
strong project.



On Sun, Apr 16, 2017 at 10:50 PM, Niclas Hedhman <niclas@hedhman.org> wrote:

> The "wrong" part (from a project's PoV) is that ASF retains trademarks...
>
> On Mon, Apr 17, 2017 at 10:56 AM, P. Taylor Goetz <ptgoetz@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > +1 for retirement.
> >
> > There's absolutely nothing wrong with a podling returning to the place
> > from whence it came. I'm encouraged that that sentiment seems to be
> > proliferating among the IPMC.
> >
> > -Taylor
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > On Apr 16, 2017, at 11:33 AM, Ted Dunning <ted.dunning@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > Sounds like consensus is coming together, then. Sound right?
> > >
> > >
> > >> On Apr 16, 2017 06:03, "larry mccay" <lmccay@apache.org> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> Hmmmm - interesting points about incubator vs github and overhead.
> > >> I do think my statement was unclear though.
> > >>
> > >> I was saying exactly the same thing about struggling podlings.
> > >> Much better to find out in the incubator than as a TLP that the apache
> > way
> > >> isn't really going to work for them at the moment.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> On Sun, Apr 16, 2017 at 7:21 AM, John D. Ament <johndament@apache.org
> >
> > >> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>>> On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 3:04 PM larry mccay <lmccay@apache.org>
> > wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Well said.
> > >>>> It is healthy to not have a podling graduate and subsequently
> struggle
> > >>> as a
> > >>>> TLP.
> > >>>> This is actually a success of sorts.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> At least until a majority of podlings have trouble. :)
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>> I may be reading Ted's email differently.  Or I might be reading your
> > >>> response wrong.
> > >>>
> > >>> Retirement isn't a failure.  Podlings are meant to be experiments in
> > some
> > >>> cases.  Can I build a strong enough community, can we follow the
> apache
> > >>> way.
> > >>>
> > >>> There's a notion that the incubator adds over head to smaller
> projects.
> > >> If
> > >>> you're a one-or-two developer group, who can commit one small change
> > and
> > >>> cut a release in an afternoon, coming to apache with our 3 day voting
> > >>> periods seems crazy.
> > >>>
> > >>> For small projects like Sirona, they may benefit from rapid iterate,
> > >>> release, feedback cycles. This is where tooling like GitHub becomes
> > much
> > >>> more useful.  Once you get wikis, websites going, you can iterate and
> > >> seem
> > >>> like a strong community.  Until you become a community of 100's of
> > users.
> > >>>
> > >>> We don't want to see struggling podlings graduate.  This is why the
> > >>> incubator has no time limit.  We do get worried when a podling's been
> > >> here
> > >>> for too long.
> > >>>
> > >>> Basically, Sirona may see some success retiring from Apache, moving
> > >>> development to github, until they've been able to build a bigger
> > >> community.
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>> On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 2:55 PM, Ted Dunning <ted.dunning@gmail.com
> >
> > >>>> wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>>> I think that we need to get over thinking of this state of
affairs
> > >> is a
> > >>>>> "failure".
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> It is just one of the many different possible outcomes for
> > >> incubation.
> > >>> To
> > >>>>> my mind, having multiple possible outcomes is a *feature*,
not a
> bug.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Obviously, we should not admit podlings that we aren't committed
to
> > >>>> helping
> > >>>>> become TLP's and we should help those podlings become TLP's.
But
> > >> there
> > >>>> are
> > >>>>> lots of different possible outcomes and only the podling can
really
> > >>>>> determine which outcome it will have.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> It is a fact of nature that we cannot always know whether a
new
> > >> podling
> > >>>>> really has the right intent and contributor mix to become a
good
> TLP.
> > >>>>> Sometimes it is apparent that the project will be a great fit
and
> > >>>> sometimes
> > >>>>> it is apparent that it won't be, but many times we won't exactly
> > >> know.
> > >>>>> There will be cases where a community will melt away and there
will
> > >> be
> > >>>>> cases where a community really didn't get the point of the
Apache
> > >>>> license.
> > >>>>> In many cases, the world just changes and by the time it is
time to
> > >>>>> graduate, the project just isn't the right thing to do any
more.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> As such, I think we need to (somewhat) over-admit podlings
when
> there
> > >>> is
> > >>>>> doubt. That doesn't mean admit projects that just won't ever
> succeed,
> > >>> but
> > >>>>> it does mean we should be a little generous in terms of admission.
> We
> > >>>>> should vote to admit in cases of some doubt.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> If that is true, then we have to expect that there will be
a
> variety
> > >> of
> > >>>>> outcomes and we have to take that as a consequence of our initial
> > >>>>> generosity. This is not a cause for tears. Frankly, every project
> > >> that
> > >>>>> becomes an obvious candidate for retirement means that there
is
> > >> another
> > >>>>> successful project that we admitted even though there was doubt.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> IF it is time to retire Sirona, let's just do it.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 10:09 AM, Pierre Smits <
> > >> pierre.smits@gmail.com
> > >>>>
> > >>>>> wrote:
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>> It is very sad to see a project failing at growing a community.
> > >>> Looking
> > >>>>> at
> > >>>>>> the various public sources, I see:
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>   - just 2 pull request since its start in incubation
> > >>>>>>   - no postings on the user ml since December 2015
> > >>>>>>   - only 3 committing contributors since start in incubation
> > >>>>>>   - No description (readme) in github
> > >>>>>>   - No mission statement/goal description of the project
on the
> > >>>>> project's
> > >>>>>>   home page
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> I fear this will not turn around due to the lack of interest
in
> the
> > >>>> world
> > >>>>>> beyond the project. At the moment I am inclined to say:
time for
> > >>>>>> retirement.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Best regards,
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Pierre Smits
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>
> > >>>>>> OFBiz based solutions & services
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> OFBiz Extensions Marketplace
> > >>>>>> http://oem.ofbizci.net/oci-2/
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 5:07 PM, Jean-Baptiste Onofré
<
> > >>> jb@nanthrax.net
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>> wrote:
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Hi John
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> I think you did the right thing by bringing the point
on the
> > >> table.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> AFAIR I already stated some months ago that, regarding
the
> > >> activity
> > >>>> and
> > >>>>>>> regarding the community around, we should really think
about
> > >>>> retirement
> > >>>>>> of
> > >>>>>>> Sirona. Some can argue about the fact that Sirona is
a "stable"
> > >>>> project
> > >>>>>>> that's not really valid: if it's valid we should see
questions,
> > >>>> feature
> > >>>>>>> requests, etc coming from the user community. And obviously
it's
> > >>> not
> > >>>>> the
> > >>>>>>> case. So I think that Sirona is just use for specific
use cases
> > >> in
> > >>> a
> > >>>>> very
> > >>>>>>> limited community.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> My €0.01 ;)
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Regards
> > >>>>>>> JB
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> On Apr 15, 2017, 15:49, at 15:49, "John D. Ament" <
> > >>>>> johndament@apache.org
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> wrote:
> > >>>>>>>> All,
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> I hate bringing up these topics.  But I think we
as the IPMC we
> > >>> have
> > >>>>> to
> > >>>>>>>> take a close look at how Sirona is running and
figure out what
> > >> to
> > >>> do
> > >>>>>>>> next.
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> - The podling has not reported in several months
(this is their
> > >>> 3rd
> > >>>>>>>> attempt
> > >>>>>>>> at monthly).
> > >>>>>>>> - Every time the thought of retirement comes up,
a little bit of
> > >>>>>>>> activity
> > >>>>>>>> on the project happens.  It doesn't sustain.
> > >>>>>>>> - There is some limited project history, but no
real
> > >> contribution
> > >>>> in 6
> > >>>>>>>> months ( https://github.com/apache/sirona/commits/trunk
)
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> I personally don't want to see projects go, and
I don't want to
> > >>>> force
> > >>>>> a
> > >>>>>>>> project to leave, but at the same time I'm not
convinced that
> > >>>> there's
> > >>>>>>>> enough of a community behind the project to sustain
it going
> > >>>> forward.
> > >>>>>>>> They've put together a limited plan to get a release
out the
> > >> door,
> > >>>> but
> > >>>>>>>> other than that I'm not sure they're going to be
able to move
> > >>>> forward.
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> So I want to ask, as the IPMC, do we want to give
them time to
> > >>>>> regroup?
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> John
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>
> > >>
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Niclas Hedhman, Software Developer
> http://polygene.apache.org - New Energy for Java
>

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