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From Josh Elser <>
Subject Re: [VOTE] Drop incubating requirement of Maven artifacts
Date Tue, 03 Jan 2017 21:20:07 GMT
(late to the party)

-1 (binding) as an ask to table the VOTE and try to reach some better 

I have to agree with Julian that some more discussion may be prudent 
here. There are definitely two divided camps, both of which bring good 
points to the table.

* Differing policies for the languages/tools of products that podlings 
create (maven projects vs. python/ruby projects). Julian states this 
very well.

* A clear definition of what the IPMC thinks "x.y.z-incubating" should 
mean and some better public-facing docs on what "incubating releases" 
actually mean.
   - Groovy is a great, recent example. They were a very "mature" 
software project, but still were "immature" in the terms of an ASF 
community (purely speaking of them as being a podling, not a TLP). 
Personally, if I see the -incubating suffix on a version, I can 
recognize that the *community* is the thing at risk. However, I can also 
see how those less affiliated with the incubator could interpret it as 
"software quality". John states this very well in the VOTE text itself 
-- it leaves me wondering if we couldn't just be more clear out of the 

I also need to re-read the original thread from freemarker (no [DISCUSS] 
in the subject and the holidays kept me from reading it closely) to 
think about the original stated problem some more.

- Josh

Julian Hyde wrote:
> John,
> I see your points, and hopefully you see mine. I think we can agree on one thing: we
have not reached consensus. :)
> The inconsistency among build tools is a red herring. If we want consistency across build
tools (and more importantly across package formats, regardless of the tool used to build them),
let’s first figure out what we want, and apply this to all build tools.
> Julian
>> On Jan 3, 2017, at 3:34 AM, John D. Ament<>  wrote:
>> Carsten, Julian,
>> I want to reiterate my notes from a prior message [1] in case there is any
>> confusion over the ask.  There is a "best practice" around maven specific
>> releases that has been treated as policy,  [2].  This best practice for
>> some reason is only applied if you are using the maven build tool.  E.g.
>> published python packages, ruby gems do not have this requirement.  The
>> purpose of this thread is to realign maven specific releases with the other
>> convenience binaries published by podlings.
>> This is not intended to drop the -incubator/-incubating tag applied to
>> source releases.  It was however established in 2008 [3] that releases
>> published by the incubator were endorsed, the -incubator/incubating tag was
>> to imply that the project itself was not considered stable and could go
>> away.
>> John
>> [1]:
>> [2]:
>> [3]:
>> On Tue, Jan 3, 2017 at 1:47 AM Carsten Ziegeler<>
>> wrote:
>>> -1
>>> I followed the "other thread" but it's still unclear to me what real
>>> problem this tries to solve.
>>> As others noted, there should be an indicator whether this is already an
>>> official Apache project or in the incubator and adding it to the version
>>> information is the solution with causes the least amount of pain for
>>> users. It's a simple marker, clearly visible for any user.
>>> And once the project is out of the incubator, users simply need to
>>> update to a new version - something which they would do anyway.
>>> Carsten
>>> John D. Ament wrote
>>>> All,
>>>> I'm calling to vote on a proposed policy change.  Current guide at [1]
>>>> indicates that maven artifacts should include incubator (or incubating)
>>> in
>>>> the version string of maven artifacts.  Its labeled as a best practice,
>>> not
>>>> a requirement and is not a policy followed on other repository management
>>>> tools (e.g. PyPi).
>>>> I therefore push forward that the incubator will cease expecting
>>> java-based
>>>> projects to publish artifacts with "-incubating" in the version string,
>>>> with the understanding that:
>>>> - Incubating is a term used to refer to a project's stability, not a
>>>> release's stability.  It is generally understood that incubating projects
>>>> are not necessarily immature, but may have a potential of failing to
>>> become
>>>> a TLP.
>>>> - Podling releases are endorsed, the podling itself is not endorsed.  We
>>>> will not approve releases that are blatantly against ASF policies.
>>>> [ ] +1 Drop the -incubator/-incubating expectation of maven projects
>>>> [ ] +/0
>>>> [ ] -1 Don't drop because....
>>>> [1]:
>>> --
>>> Carsten Ziegeler
>>> Adobe Research Switzerland
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