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From Jeff Genender <>
Subject Re: [DISCUSS] China Contribution. (was: RocketMQ Incubation Proposal)
Date Sun, 13 Nov 2016 22:32:23 GMT

> On Nov 13, 2016, at 2:57 PM, Reynold Xin <> wrote:
> "a better global way to A) communicate across a medium that everyone uses daily B) archive
to search and come back to"
> How would we even validate or decide that? For discussions like this it is very easy
to fall into confirmation bias. 

How?   Dunno… maybe about 17 years of historical data from Apache?  This one is pretty easy
to “confirm”, no?

> I use mailing lists all the time since it is the Apache Way, but I also admit there are
potentially better ways for other projects. People that are used to mailing lists might think
mailing lists are the best thing in the world, but the reality is that majority of the developers
in this world, outside a few core open source projects, have never used mailing lists. If
we talk to the QQ/Wechat/web-based-forum generation in China and force them to use mailing
lists, they might comply because it is the Apache Way, but they will also develop the sentiment
that the ASF refuses to change and adapt newer technologies.

Wechat?  Really?  Lets throw in Snapchat too while we are at it so there is no footprint for
that discussion.  Seriously?  Reynold, is this really coming from you of all people?

This project wanted to come to Apache, right?  Did they (or other Chinese projects) not look
at the way things are done and all of a sudden have an issue with it?  I’m just sayin’…
there shouldn’t be surprises here, right?


> And to be honest, while I think mailing lists are great for simple voting and information
dissemination, there are obvious downsides of mailing lists too. That's why a lot of projects
also augment mailing lists via video discussions, google docs for commenting, wiki, etc.
> In reality, there are also legal reasons why we use mailing lists, and those are not
as well known. We should document those and make them more visible too.
> On Sun, Nov 13, 2016 at 12:25 PM, Jeff Genender < <>>
> > On Nov 13, 2016, at 11:33 AM, Gunnar Tapper < <>>
> > As mentioned, the Apache Way is that "everything happens on the mailing lists."
As a matter of fact, key parts of being an incubator is to learn how to operate per the Apache
Way and to build communities. We even include statistics about mailing list engagement as
an indicator of community building.
> >
> Gunnar, I’m going to give you a big -1 to this.
> Unless you can come up with a better global way to A) communicate across a medium that
everyone uses daily B) archive to search and come back to, I am in full disagreement.  Since
I have been with Apache (about 14 years), I have yet to find a better medium than the lists,
and its always been a known fact that ultimately, any non-mail list discussions that result
in some form of a decision are brought to the mail lists for global discussion.
> Our mail lists are indexed by Google and others.  Its easy to find what one looks for.
> Jeff

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