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From Emmanuel Lécharny <>
Subject Re: [DISCUSS] China Contribution.
Date Mon, 14 Nov 2016 00:26:40 GMT

Le 13/11/16 à 22:57, Reynold Xin a écrit :
> "a better global way to A) communicate across a medium that everyone uses
> daily B) archive to search and come back to"
> How would we even validate or decide that? For discussions like this it is
> very easy to fall into confirmation bias.
> I use mailing lists all the time since it is the Apache Way, but I also
> admit there are potentially better ways for other projects. People that are
> used to mailing lists might think mailing lists are the best thing in the
> world, but the reality is that majority of the developers in this world,
> outside a few core open source projects, have never used mailing lists. 
Many projects never used unit tests, Version control system, Bug tracker
systems, etc...

That probably explain why many projects are plain failures too.

> If
> we talk to the QQ/Wechat/web-based-forum generation in China and force them
> to use mailing lists, they might comply because it is the Apache Way, but
> they will also develop the sentiment that the ASF refuses to change and
> adapt newer technologies.

Are you suggesting they should ignore the time zones ? Because, all in
all, it's all about TZ and asynchronous interactions.

Yes, sure, it's way more convenient to be able to have everyone on a
project being connected at the very same time and chatting live.

Start with a project gathering people from Australia, South Korea,
California, Florida, England, Turkey, France, Italy, Germany,
Switzerland, Slovakia, China, Netherland, Poland,  try to get all those
people collaborating... The Directory project tried to organized weekly
calls, we never were able to do it more than three weeks in a raw : some
had to wake up at 7am, others at midnight, whild some were having lunch.
Simply not flying.

And please, come on with english being a problem : it's way better than
having all of those different people speaking in their own language and
using google translate (just give it a try with Koran, turkish or
german. Good luck with that !!!).

> And to be honest, while I think mailing lists are great for simple voting
> and information dissemination, there are obvious downsides of mailing lists
> too. That's why a lot of projects also augment mailing lists via video
> discussions, google docs for commenting, wiki, etc.
At the end of the day, the only reliable source, that anyone can read
from almost everywhere on the planet, asynchronously, is and will always
be the mailing list.

OTOH, get me a pointer to video archives that I can search, get me
traces of 10 years old google docs visible by *everyone* even those who
haven't been invited to access them, get me 2010 IRC logs that I can
read in 2016...

> In reality, there are also legal reasons why we use mailing lists, and
> those are not as well known. We should document those and make them more
> visible too.

Please stop thinking that we have a legal reason for everything we are
doing. This is not a state, we don't have a Law for every single aspect
of what we do.

Time to read "the ASF WAY Book" ;-)

Emmanuel Lecharny

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