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From "John D. Ament" <>
Subject Re: [DISCUSS] Apache NetBeans Incubator Proposal
Date Fri, 23 Sep 2016 08:02:53 GMT
Hi Bertrand,

Responses in line.

On Thu, Sep 22, 2016 at 11:54 PM Bertrand Delacretaz <>

> Hi Geertjan,
> I won't have time to look at your whole message now, just a few
> clarifications as far as committers/PMC is concerned.
> On Fri, Sep 23, 2016 at 7:50 AM, Geertjan Wielenga <
>> wrote:
> > ...Anyone on the list
> > will, once the proposal has been voted on and accepted, automatically be
> > contributors to the Apache NetBeans project...
> They will be commiters to be precise.

Agreed, the way I interpretted Geertjan is that Netbeans contributor == ASF
committer.  They don't have the role of PMC/PPMC presently, so we'll see
how that evolves.

> > Anyone not on the list will
> > need to be voted in by the initial contributors, which is a process that
> > could be fast, but is still a process and can be avoided by inclusion in
> > the initial contributors list...
> It's a simple process, the incubating project could very well have one vote
> for N people if that makes sense and they are all wanted.

Its simple but hard.  And no, I don't think we want bulk votes.  What if
someone is +1 add Mark S and -1 add Bertrand D?  At least when its come up
to the IPMC previously, we've recommended against it.

> > Everyone on the initial contributors list is
> > automatically part of the PMC.
> There's no PMC for an incubating project, just a PPMC as per
> That group has no formal power, only the Incubator PMC can vote on the
> podling's releases or make other decisions which are binding at the
> foundation level.
> In practice, you are correct that the PPMC is a PMC in training, but really
> in a podling being a PPMC member doesn't make a difference IMO.

It does.  PPMC has one important job - vote on adding more people.  We hope
that they will learn to look at their releases very carefully while under

> > ...Anyone on the list when the project leaves
> > incubation gets write access to the project for the rest of their life...
> That's correct, but there can be a difference between the committers and
> PMC members once the project graduates. As a mentor, when graduating I
> would not accept a PMC member who has not contributed during incubation for
> example, whereas a committer that hasn't really been active during
> incubation is harmless.
> Committers don't have formal power once the project graduates, and if they
> don't behave their commits rights can easily be suspended, temporarily or
> permanently. That very rarely happens, just mentioning it to clarify the
> risks.

That's... odd to say the least.  I'm not aware of any specific cases,
doesn't mean it hasn't' happened, but I can't think of any cases where it
has (other than one special case recently of someone being asked out of the

> In summary, what you don't want in an Apache project is poisonous PMC
> members, so in my view to be on the PMC once graduating people will have to
> demonstrate during incubation that they are making positive contributions
> to it - just being on the initial list of committers doesn't count towards
> that, in my book.
> > ...If the above is accurate, we do need to work on the initial
> contributors
> > list prior to voting on the proposal, quite aside from the infra
> assessment...
> I still don't think that's required and should be avoided if it delays the
> vote for NetBeans acceptance, as the list of committers can be modified
> during incubation with just a bit of additional work.

I don't think this will add a lot of work.  I even gave him the idea of
just generating a script of past committers based on commit history.

> If you still want do expand the list during incubation, best is to come up
> with a list of additional names that the existing NetBeans community feels
> deserve to be on that list (maybe based on votes on the existing NetBeans
> community's channels), and have the NetBeans mentors accept that new list.

Agreed 100%.  If someone hasn't added anything in a while, has no interest
in developing more, and the community doesn't see much benefit, they
shouldn't be on the list.  However, if that person does start contributing,
please pay close attention to see if they're interested in coming back.

> -Bertrand

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