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From Roman Shaposhnik <>
Subject Re: Concerning Sentry: A disagreement over the Apache Way and graduation
Date Mon, 02 Nov 2015 17:30:01 GMT
Here's an idea: how about you guys fill out the maturity model template?
I really liked how it turned out during the Groovy graduation discussion
and perhaps it can help here as well.

JIRA vs. MLs is but a single facet of how a project practices "Apache Way".
Personally I'd like to see more data points.


On Mon, Nov 2, 2015 at 9:27 AM, Vinod Vavilapalli
<> wrote:
> Many of the active TLPs do tend to center all project discussions on JIRA as opposed
to mailing lists. OTOH, non-code discussions are usually best served on mailing lists.
> Instead of making it a JIRA vs mailing list discussion, how about the podling be advised
about putting a cool-off period for JIRA resolutions - 24-36hrs before they get closed. Again,
this is something a bunch of active TLPs practice in the interest of leaving enough time windows
for everyone (many times around the world in different time-zones) to pitch in.
> +Vinod
>> On Nov 2, 2015, at 3:59 AM, Joe Brockmeier <> wrote:
>> Hi all,
>> I'm one of the mentors of Sentry, which has been in incubation for some
>> time. The project has progressed in a number of ways, but my largest
>> concern is that the podling is doing [in my opinion] too much
>> development and discussion out-of-sight.
>> I've raised issues about this, as has David Nalley. David had a
>> conversation with members of Sentry at ApacheCon Big Data in September,
>> and that discussion was brought back to the list. [1]
>> Jiras are being filed, and swiftly acted on, in a way that strongly
>> suggests that a lot of discussion and direction of the project are
>> happening off-list and out-of-sight to the average participant. David
>> and myself have suggested ways that the community can remedy this, but
>> the most recent mail from Arvind indicates that he (and others in the
>> podling) don't feel it is a "valid ask."
>> At this point, I'm raising this to general@ because I'd like second (and
>> third, etc.) opinions. Perhaps I'm deeply wrong, and others here feel
>> Sentry is ready to graduate. My feeling is that the podling is not
>> operating in "the Apache Way" and doesn't show a great deal of interest
>> in doing so. [2] To quote Arvind:
>> "I feel another issue being pointed out or which has been eluded to in
>> the past is - who decides which Jiras should be fixed, what features to
>> create etc, specially when they show up as Jira issues directly with
>> patches that follow soon. It seems that in some ways the lack of using
>> mailing lists directly for discussion is linked to this behavior of
>> filing issues and fixing them rapidly, as if following a roadmap that
>> the community does not have control over. Please pardon me if my
>> interpretation/understanding of the issue is not right. But if it is
>> right, then I do want to say that - that too is not an issue in my
>> opinion at all. And here is why:
>> When someone files a Jira, they are inviting the entire community to
>> comment on it and provide feedback. If it is not in the interest of the
>> project, I do believe that responsible members of the community will be
>> quick to bring that out for discussion and even Veto it if necessary. If
>> that is not happening, it is not an issue with lack of community
>> participation, but rather it is an indicator of a project team that
>> knows where the gaps are and understands how to go about filling them
>> intuitively."
>> The model that Sentry is pursing may work very well *for the existing
>> members of the podling.* In my opinion, its process is entirely too
>> opaque to allow for interested parties outside of the existing podling
>> and companies interested in Sentry development to become involved.
>> The podling is pressing to move to graduation, and I cannot in good
>> conscience vote +1 or even +0 at this point. I'm strongly -1 as a mentor
>> and don't feel the podling has any interest in working in "the Apache
>> Way" as commonly understood. [3]
>> However, I feel we've reached an impasse and there's little value in
>> continuing to debate amongst the mentors / podling. They've stated their
>> position(s) and I've stated mine. (I *think* David Nalley is in
>> agreement with me, but I don't wish to speak for him.)
>> I'm bringing this to the IPMC fully understanding that I might be
>> totally wrong - maybe I'm holding to a too strict or outdated idea of
>> how projects should operate. I'm happy to be told so if that's the case
>> so I can improve as a mentor or decide to bow out from mentoring in the
>> future, if it's the case that my idea of a project is out-of-line with
>> the majority here.
>> [1]
>> [2]
>> [3]
>> Best,
>> jzb
>> --
>> Joe Brockmeier
>> Twitter: @jzb
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