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From jan i <j...@apache.org>
Subject Re: [DISCUSS] [PROPOSAL] Singa for Apache Incubator
Date Fri, 27 Feb 2015 07:37:04 GMT
On Friday, February 27, 2015, Henry Saputra <henry.saputra@gmail.com> wrote:

> I am strongly suggest you solicit more (diverse) mentors before start the
> VOTE.
>
> All initial committers are from same org and all initial mentors are
> from same company (HW).

We do have a requirement for diversity, for me all initial committers from
the same company is just as big a problem as mentors. when everyone
involved are from the same company then that signals a serious problem
which should be addressed before starting a vote.

rgds
jan i

>
> I am not sure this is a good start for Apache podling.
>
>
> - Henry
>
> On Thu, Feb 26, 2015 at 9:12 AM, Thejas Nair <thejas.nair@gmail.com
> <javascript:;>> wrote:
> > The incubator proposal has been updated with the feedback so far.
> > We have 3 mentors now, but I think it would be good to have additional
> > mentors. Please let me know if anyone is able to help mentor this
> > project.
> >
> > I am planning to start a vote on the proposal in a day or two.
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Feb 6, 2015 at 5:21 PM,  <ooibc@comp.nus.edu.sg <javascript:;>>
> wrote:
> >>
> >> Regarding the number of users using this project -- at this moment, the
> >> community is not big.  A few local start-ups have been trying to use it
> >> (mainly due to announcement in our seminar list), eg. one is using it
> for
> >> image recognition (given a phone snapped by a user, it wants to be
> return
> >> the same the product, and a list of similar products, such as a luxury
> bag
> >> on a passerby).  Researchers from outside of NUS may have been using it
> >> since we published an application paper on cross domain/modal retrieval
> in
> >> VLDB 2014.
> >>
> >> We have not announced the project to the outside community yet -- we
> would
> >> announce it in dbworld etc in due course.
> >>
> >> Thanks and have a good weekend.
> >>
> >> regards
> >> beng chin
> >>
> >>>
> >>> Thanks for the comments and suggestions.
> >>> With permission from Thejas, I would like to respond to point 2.
> >>>
> >>> We have a huge team down at NUS (National University of Singapore) --
> >>> we have about seven database/data mining data professors (not including
> >>> those in systems, networking, and machine learning).
> >>> I myself have nine PhD students in a steady state, and I have a few
> large
> >>> grants, with a total budget of about 15 million S$ (~12 million USD),
> that
> >>> allows me to hire a number of research fellows and research assistants
> for
> >>> the next few years.  In a constant state, I have about 20 people (PhD
> >>> students/RA/RF) working with me alone.  Other professors have their own
> >>> grants (unlike other countries, it is relatively easy to get large
> grants
> >>> in Singapore; many overseas Universities, including UIUC, MIT, ETH etc
> >>> have research labs funded by Singapore Research Foundation [equivalent
> of
> >>> NSF]).
> >>>
> >>> SINGA is a long term project for us -- while it is a platform as it
> is, we
> >>> are using it for healthcare predictive analytics (by working with a
> >>> hospital associated with the University).  Therefore, we will be
> working
> >>> on SINGA, not solely as a distributed DL platform, but as a tool that
> will
> >>> enable us to do data analytics on some business domains (eg.
> healthcase,
> >>> consumer etc)
> >>>
> >>> For the initial set of committers, three are tenured professors, five
> are
> >>> students, with 2-5 years to go before they complete their PhD.  Quite
> >>> often, some would stay back as a research fellow for a couple of years
> >>> before they start looking for a job outside.  We will work with mentors
> >>> and new developers (from outside of NUS or Zhejiang University) in
> >>> enhancing the system.
> >>>
> >>> The project should survive in that sense.
> >>>
> >>> (I have an on-going project CIIDAA that has been around since 2008; it
> was
> >>> started as another project, epiC,  with a different grant, and then we
> >>> continue the development with a new grant for CIIDAA --
> >>> http://www.comp.nus.edu.sg/~ciidaa/
> >>> )
> >>>
> >>> Thanks.
> >>>
> >>> regards
> >>> beng chin
> >>> ps: i am not sure if my email will get through to the group.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> ---------------------------- Original Message
> ----------------------------
> >>> Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] [PROPOSAL] Singa for Apache Incubator
> >>> From:    "Henry Saputra" <henry.saputra@gmail.com <javascript:;>>
> >>> Date:    Thu, February 5, 2015 2:57 pm
> >>> To:      "general@incubator.apache.org <javascript:;>" <
> general@incubator.apache.org <javascript:;>>
> >>> Cc:      ooibc@comp.nus.edu.sg <javascript:;>
> >>>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>
> >>> Several comments:
> >>> -) How many users already using this project? I would reccomend to
> >>> drop request for singa-user list at the beginning.
> >>> -) All the initial committers come from university and seemed like
> >>> some of them already ready to leave university. I am not too sure if
> >>> this project go survive if all of the inital committers are from
> >>> university as students.
> >>> -) Need to solicit more mentors if this project ever get to Apache
> >>> incubator.
> >>>
> >>> - Henry
> >>>
> >>> On Tue, Feb 3, 2015 at 3:58 PM, Thejas Nair <thejas.nair@gmail.com
> <javascript:;>> wrote:
> >>>> The "Relationship with Other Apache Products" section has been
> >>>> updated. The reference to H2O in that section has been removed, and
> >>>> other projects have been added.
> >>>>  Thanks for the feedback!
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On Wed, Jan 28, 2015 at 10:27 AM, Thejas Nair <thejas.nair@gmail.com
> <javascript:;>>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>>> Thanks for pointing that out Henry! Yes, looks like H20 is not an
> >>>>> apache project, I should have verified that.
> >>>>> I will edit that, and revisit that section along with the folks
in
> >>>>> Singa community.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Tue, Jan 27, 2015 at 6:55 PM, Henry Saputra
> >>> <henry.saputra@gmail.com <javascript:;>> wrote:
> >>>>>> Quick immediate comment that "Apache H2O" is not really Apache
> >>>>>> project.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I assume you are referring to https://github.com/h2oai/h2o (or
> >>>>>> https://github.com/h2oai/h2o-dev) ?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> - Henry
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On Tue, Jan 27, 2015 at 5:29 PM, Thejas Nair <thejas.nair@gmail.com
> <javascript:;>>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>>>>> Hello everyone,
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I would like to propose the inclusion of Singa as an Apache
> Incubator
> >>> project.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Here is the proposal -
> >>>>>>> https://wiki.apache.org/incubator/SingaProposal
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Please review the proposal and give feedback. I am planning
to
> start
> >>>>>>> a
> >>>>>>> vote after 7 days if the proposal looks good.
> >>>>>>> We are also seeking additional Apache mentors for the project.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Thanks,
> >>>>>>> Thejas
> >>>>>>> ==========================================================
> >>>>>>> Singa Incubator Proposal
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Abstract
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> SINGA is a distributed deep learning platform.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Proposal
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> SINGA is an efficient, scalable and easy-to-use distributed
> platform
> >>>>>>> for training deep learning models, e.g., Deep Convolutional
Neural
> >>>>>>> Network and Deep Belief Network. It parallelizes the computation
> >>>>>>> (i.e., training) onto a cluster of nodes by distributing
the
> training
> >>>>>>> data and model automatically to speed up the training. Built-in
> >>>>>>> training algorithms like Back-Propagation and Contrastive
> Divergence
> >>>>>>> are implemented based on common abstractions of deep learning
> models.
> >>>>>>> Users can train their own deep learning models by simply
> customizing
> >>>>>>> these abstractions like implementing the Mapper and Reducer
in
> >>>>>>> Hadoop.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Background
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Deep learning refers to a set of feature (or representation)
> learning
> >>>>>>> models that consist of multiple (non-linear) layers, where
> different
> >>>>>>> layers learn different levels of abstractions (representations)
of
> >>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>> raw input data. Larger (in terms of model parameters) and
deeper
> (in
> >>>>>>> terms of number of layers) models have shown better performance,
> >>>>>>> e.g.,
> >>>>>>> lower image classification error in Large Scale Visual Recognition
> >>>>>>> Challenge. However, a larger model requires more memory
and larger
> >>>>>>> training data to reduce over-fitting. Complex numeric operations
> make
> >>>>>>> the training computation intensive. In practice, training
large
> deep
> >>>>>>> learning models takes weeks or months on a single node (even
with
> >>>>>>> GPU).
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Rational
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Deep learning has gained a lot of attraction in both academia
and
> >>>>>>> industry due to its success in a wide range of areas such
as
> computer
> >>>>>>> vision and speech recognition. However, training of such
models is
> >>>>>>> computationally expensive, especially for large and deep
models
> >>>>>>> (e.g.,
> >>>>>>> with billions of parameters and more than 10 layers). Both
Google
> and
> >>>>>>> Microsoft have developed distributed deep learning systems
to make
> >>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>> training more efficient by distributing the computations
within a
> >>>>>>> cluster of nodes. However, these systems are closed source
> softwares.
> >>>>>>> Our goal is to leverage the community of open source developers
to
> >>>>>>> make SINGA efficient, scalable and easy to use. SINGA is
a full
> >>>>>>> fledged distributed platform, that could benefit the community
and
> >>>>>>> also benefit from the community in their involvement in
> contributing
> >>>>>>> to the further work in this area. We believe the nature
of SINGA
> and
> >>>>>>> our visions for the system fit naturally to Apache's philosophy
and
> >>>>>>> development framework.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Initial Goals
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> We have developed a system for SINGA running on a commodity
> computer
> >>>>>>> cluster. The initial goals include, * improving the system
in terms
> >>>>>>> of
> >>>>>>> scalability and efficiency, e.g., using Infiniband for network
> >>>>>>> communication and multi-threading for one node computation.
We
> would
> >>>>>>> consider extending SINGA to GPU clusters later. * benchmarking
with
> >>>>>>> larger datasets (hundreds of millions of training instances)
and
> >>>>>>> models (billions of parameters). * adding more built-in
deep
> learning
> >>>>>>> models. Users can train the built-in models on their datasets
> >>>>>>> directly.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Current Status
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Meritocracy
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> We would like to follow ASF meritocratic principles to encourage
> more
> >>>>>>> developers to contribute in this project. We know that only
active
> >>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>> excellent developers can make SINGA a successful project.
The
> >>>>>>> committer list and PMC will be updated based on developers'
> >>>>>>> performance and commitment. We are also improving the documentation
> >>>>>>> and code to help new developers get started quickly.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Community
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> SINGA is currently being developed in the Database System
Research
> >>>>>>> Lab
> >>>>>>> at the National University of Singapore (NUS) in collaboration
with
> >>>>>>> Zhejiang University in China. Our lab has extensive experience
in
> >>>>>>> building database related systems, including distributed
systems.
> Six
> >>>>>>> PhD students and research assistants (Jinyang Gao, Kaiping
Zheng,
> >>>>>>> Sheng Wang, Wei Wang, Zhaojing Luo and Zhongle Xie) , a
research
> >>>>>>> fellow (Anh Dinh) and three professors (Beng Chin Ooi, Gang
Chen,
> >>>>>>> Kian
> >>>>>>> Lee Tan) have been working for a year on this project. We
are open
> to
> >>>>>>> recruiting more developers from diverse backgrounds.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Core Developers
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Beng Chin Ooi, Gang Chen and Kian Lee Tan are professors
who have
> >>>>>>> worked on distributed systems for more than 20 years. They
have
> >>>>>>> collaborated with the industry and have built various large
scale
> >>>>>>> systems. Anh Dinh's research is also on distributed systems,
albeit
> >>>>>>> with more focus on security aspects. Wei Wang's research
is on deep
> >>>>>>> learning problems including deep learning applications and
large
> >>>>>>> scale
> >>>>>>> training. Sheng Wang and Jinyang are working on efficient
indexing,
> >>>>>>> querying of large scale data and machine learning. Kaiping,
> Zhaojing
> >>>>>>> and Zhongle are new PhD students who jointed SINGA recently.
They
> >>>>>>> will
> >>>>>>> work on this project for a longer time (next 4-5 years).
While we
> >>>>>>> share common research interests, each member also brings
diverse
> >>>>>>> expertise to the team.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Alignment
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> ASF is already the home of many distributed platforms, e.g.,
> Hadoop,
> >>>>>>> Spark and Mahout, each of which targets a different application
> >>>>>>> domain. SINGA, being a distributed platform for large-scale
deep
> >>>>>>> learning, focuses on another important domain for which
there still
> >>>>>>> lacks a robust and scalable open-source platform. The recent
> success
> >>>>>>> of deep learning models especially for vision and speech
> recognition
> >>>>>>> tasks has generated interests in both applying existing
deep
> learning
> >>>>>>> models and in developing new ones. Thus, an open-source
platform
> for
> >>>>>>> deep learning will be able to attract a large community
of users
> and
> >>>>>>> developers. SINGA is a complex system needing many iterations
of
> >>>>>>> design, implementation and testing. Apache's collaboration
> framework
> >>>>>>> which encourages active contribution from developers will
> inevitably
> >>>>>>> help improve the quality of the system, as shown in the
success of
> >>>>>>> Hadoop, Spark, etc.. Equally important is the community
of users
> >>>>>>> which
> >>>>>>> helps identify real-life applications of deep learning,
and helps
> to
> >>>>>>> evaluate the system's performance and ease-of-use. We hope
to
> >>>>>>> leverage
> >>>>>>> ASF for coordinating and promoting both communities, and
in return
> >>>>>>> benefit the communities with another useful tool.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Known Risks
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Orphaned products
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Four core developers (Anh, Wei Wang, Jinyang and Sheng Wang)
may
> >>>>>>> leave
> >>>>>>> the lab in two to four years time. It is possible that some
of them
> >>>>>>> may not have enough time to focus on this project after
that. But,
> >>>>>>> SINGA is part of our other bigger research projects on building
an
> >>>>>>> infrastructure for data intensive applications, which include
> >>>>>>> health-care analytics and brain-inspired computing. Beng
Chin and
> >>>>>>> Kian
> >>>>>>> Lee would continue working on it and getting more people
involved.
> >>>>>>> For
> >>>>>>> example, three new developers (Kaiping, Zhaojing and Zhongle)
> joined
> >>>>>>> us recently. Individual developers are welcome to make SINGA
a
> >>>>>>> diverse
> >>>>>>> community that is robust and independent from any single
developer.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Inexperience with Open Source
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> All the developers are active users and followers of open
source
> >>>>>>> projects. Our research lab has a strong commitment to open
source,
> >>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>> has released the source code of several systems under open
source
> >>>>>>> license as a way of contributing back to the open source
community.
> >>>>>>> But we do not have much real experience in open source projects
> with
> >>>>>>> large and well organized communities like those in Apache.
This is
> >>>>>>> one
> >>>>>>> reason we choose Apache which is experienced in open source
project
> >>>>>>> incubation. We hope to get the help from Apache (e.g., champion
and
> >>>>>>> mentors) to establish a healthy path for SINGA.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Homogenous Developers
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Although the current developers are researchers in the
> universities,
> >>>>>>> they have different research interests and project experiences,
as
> >>>>>>> mentioned in the section that introduces the core developers.
We
> know
> >>>>>>> that a diverse community is helpful. Hence we are open to
the idea
> of
> >>>>>>> recruiting developers from other regions and organizations.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Reliance on Salaried Developers
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> As a research project in the university, SINGA's current
developing
> >>>>>>> community consists of professors, PhD students, research
assistants
> >>>>>>> and postdoctoral fellows. They are driven by their interests
to
> work
> >>>>>>> on this project and have contributed actively since the
start of
> the
> >>>>>>> project. The research assistants and fellows are expected
to leave
> >>>>>>> when their contracts expire. However, they are keen to continue
to
> >>>>>>> work on the project voluntarily. Moreover, as a long term
research
> >>>>>>> project, new research assistants and fellows are likely
to join the
> >>>>>>> project.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> A Excessive Fascination with the Apache Brand
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> We choose Apache not for publicity. We have two purposes.
First, we
> >>>>>>> want to leverage Apache's reputation to recruit more developers
to
> >>>>>>> make a diverse community. Second, we hope that Apache can
help us
> to
> >>>>>>> establish a healthy path in developing SINGA. Beng Chin
and
> Kian-Lee
> >>>>>>> are established database and distributed system researchers,
and
> >>>>>>> together with the other contributors, they sincerely believe
that
> >>>>>>> there is a need for a widely accepted open source distributed
deep
> >>>>>>> learning platform. The field of deep learning is still at
its
> >>>>>>> infancy,
> >>>>>>> and an open source platform will fuel the research in the
area.
> >>>>>>> Moreover, such a platform will enable researchers to develop
new
> >>>>>>> models and algorithms, rather than spending time implementing
a
> deep
> >>>>>>> learning system from scratch. Furthermore, the need for
scalability
> >>>>>>> for such a platform is obvious.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Relationship with Other Apache Products
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Apache H2O implemented two simple deep learning models,
namely the
> >>>>>>> Multi-Layer Perceptron and Deep Auto-encoders. There are
two
> >>>>>>> significant differences between H2O and SINGA. First, H2O
adopts
> the
> >>>>>>> Map-Reduce framework which runs a set of computing nodes
in
> parallel
> >>>>>>> againsts of the training set. Model parameters trained by
all
> >>>>>>> computing nodes are averaged as the final model parameters.
This
> >>>>>>> training algorithm is different from the distributed training
> >>>>>>> algorithm used by DistBelief, Adam and SINGA, which frequently
> >>>>>>> synchronizes the parameters trained from different nodes.
SINGA
> >>>>>>> adopts
> >>>>>>> the parameter server framework to support a wide range of
> distributed
> >>>>>>> training algorithms and parallelization methods (e.g., data
> >>>>>>> parallelism, model parallelism and hybrid parallelism. H2O
only
> >>>>>>> support data parallelism) . Second, in H2O, users are restricted
to
> >>>>>>> use the two built-in models. In SINGA, we provide simple
> programming
> >>>>>>> model to let users implement their own deep learning models.
A new
> >>>>>>> deep learning model can be implemented by customizing the
base
> Layer
> >>>>>>> class for each layer involved in the model. It is similar
to
> writing
> >>>>>>> Hadoop programs where users only need to override the base
Mapper
> and
> >>>>>>> Reducer. We also provide built-in models for users to use
directly.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Documentation
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> The project is hosted at
> >>>>>>> http://www.comp.nus.edu.sg/~dbsystem/project/singa.html.
> >>>>>>> Documentations can be found at the Github Wiki Page:
> >>>>>>> https://github.com/nusinga/singa/wiki. We continue to refine
and
> >>>>>>> improve the documentation.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Initial Source
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> We use Github to maintain our source code,
> >>> https://github.com/nusinga/singa
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Source and Intellectual Property Submission Plan
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> We plan to make our code base be under Apache License, Version
2.0.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> External Dependencies
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> required by the core code base: glog, gflags, google protobuf,
> >>>>>>> open-blas, mpich, armci-mpi.
> >>>>>>> required by data preparation and preprocessing: opencv,
hdfs,
> python.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Cryptography
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Not Applicable
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Required Resources
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Mailing Lists
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Currently, we use google group for internal discussion.
The mailing
> >>>>>>> address is nusinga@googlegroup.com <javascript:;>.
We will
> migrate the content to
> >>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>> apache mailing lists in the future.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> singa-dev
> >>>>>>> singa-user
> >>>>>>> singa-commits
> >>>>>>> singa-private (for private discussion within PCM)
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Git Repository
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> We want to continue using git for version control. Hence,
a git
> repo
> >>>>>>> is required.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Issue Tracking
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> JIRA Singa (SINGA)
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Initial Committers
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Beng Chin Ooi (ooibc @comp.nus.edu.sg)
> >>>>>>> Kian Lee Tan (tankl @comp.nus.edu.sg)
> >>>>>>> Gang Chen (cg @zju.edu.cn)
> >>>>>>> Wei Wang (wangwei @comp.nus.edu.sg)
> >>>>>>> Dinh Tien Tuan Anh (dinhtta @comp.nus.edu.sg)
> >>>>>>> Jinyang Gao (jinyang.gao @comp.nus.edu.sg)
> >>>>>>> Sheng Wang (wangsh @comp.nus.edu.sg)
> >>>>>>> Kaiping Zheng (kaiping @comp.nus.edu.sg)
> >>>>>>> Zhaojing Luo (zhaojing @comp.nus.edu.sg)
> >>>>>>> Zhongle Xie (zhongle @comp.nus.edu.sg)
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Affiliations
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Beng Chin Ooi, National University of Singapore
> >>>>>>> Kian Lee Tan, National University of Singapore
> >>>>>>> Gang Chen, Zhejiang University
> >>>>>>> Wei Wang, National University of Singapore
> >>>>>>> Dinh Tien Tuan Anh, National University of Singapore
> >>>>>>> Jinyang Gao, National University of Singapore
> >>>>>>> Sheng Wang, National University of Singapore
> >>>>>>> Kaiping Zheng, National University of Singapore
> >>>>>>> Zhaojing Luo, National University of Singapore
> >>>>>>> Zhongle Xie, National University of Singapore
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Sponsors
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Champion
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Thejas Nair (thejas at apache.org) - Hortonworks
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Nominated Mentors
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Thejas Nair (thejas at apache.org) - Hortonworks
> >>>>>>> Alan Gates (gates at apache dot org) - Hortonworks
> >>>>>>> (Seeking more volunteers!)
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Sponsoring Entity
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> We are requesting the Incubator to sponsor this project.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> <javascript:;>
> >>>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
> <javascript:;>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> <javascript:;>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>
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> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
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