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From Marvin Humphrey <>
Subject Re: Clear expectations
Date Tue, 13 Jan 2015 21:27:24 GMT
On Sun, Jan 11, 2015 at 7:18 PM, Benson Margulies <> wrote:
> Does it help anything to look at this, again, as failure modes?

How about this failure mode?

A podling receives thorough instruction on some policy during incubation.
After graduation, that policy gets violated, but most PMC members don't speak
up because the rules are messy and poorly documented and they don't have
enough confidence in their understanding to pursue the matter.

Is that failure mode even related to the Incubator?  Though you could argue
that the passive PMC members did not learn to escalate, the main lesson I take
from it is that unclear requirments are a problem for TLPs and the larger

The Incubator is teaching from an inadequate spec.  That's a problem for us in
that it wastes the time of Mentors and podlings.  But the spec's inadequacy
does not originate with the Incubator.  The Incubator doesn't own that

The question I'd ask is, How can Apache create an awesome spec that's easy to
teach, easy to learn, and easy to follow?

I think the answer starts with the very skepticism of top-down governance
which has in large part kept us from having clear rules up till now.  That
skepticism must be applied aggressively at every step of the way to ensure
that we require no more than the bare minimum.

Marvin Humphrey

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