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From "Mattmann, Chris A (3980)" <>
Subject Re: Tez graduation [Was: Request for mentor assessment]
Date Mon, 23 Jun 2014 07:43:27 GMT
Thanks Ted, these are all important points that require responses. I have
CC'ed the dev@tez.i.a.o
list, where I hope the Tez community can respond to your points below in

Guys, please see Ted's comments below and please try to address them in
light of the

recent [DISCUSS] Graduation thread I raised. It's fine if the answer to
some of the
points is (1) we plan on addressing them by X date, with Y action; (2) we
don't think
this is a valid point *because* ..*explanation*; (3) you didn't consider
this factoid 
_here_, etc.

I'm hoping the other mentors on the project can step up and have some
into the below. I look forward to the discussion.


-----Original Message-----
From: Ted Dunning <>
Reply-To: "" <>
Date: Monday, June 23, 2014 12:12 AM
To: "" <>
Subject: Re: Tez graduation [Was: Request for mentor assessment]

>On Sun, Jun 22, 2014 at 9:33 AM, Mattmann, Chris A (3980) <
>> wrote:
>> >Regardless of whether it is an explicit requirement to have some
>> >level of diversity, there is a requirement that the group demonstrate
>> >community building.
>> I'm also sympathetic to this: you can see my thread here where
>> I didn't
>> think much had been going on until I explicitly checked the lists and
>> through
>> the archives and saw ~7 IIRC PPMC members/committers added since
>> [1]. That's
>> community building regardless of what affiliation those new members came
>> from.
>> The other metrics and statistics (health of the mailing lists/open
>> discussions have
>> been increasing; releases have been made, etc.) are all there and
>> in [1].
>As I read the private list, there has been absolutely no effort at adding
>committers until last month when the topic of graduation has come up.
>is no substantive discussion on the list of the potential committers, but
>simply rather perfunctory +1 votes.
>In reading the thread about whether there should be/is a diversity
>requirement, I come to a bit of a different conclusion as well.  What I
>in the discussion is that the participants seem to agree that
>- there should not be a simple count-based diversity measure because this
>would dissuade valuable commercial contributions
>- the chance/likelihood of project failure due to a dominant commercial
>contributor pulling out should not be considered since project dormancy or
>retirement isn't a bad thing.  Better to try and fail than never try.
>- there is clear recognition of the risk of commercial companies inventing
>a project not so much because of a desire to build community but rather as
>a marketing maneuver.
>- there is no mention of the problems that have arisen in the Hadoop
>relative to use of groups and Apache trademarks for marketing purposes.
>I don't want to impute motives to actions since I cannot know what others
>hold in their hearts, but I don't see evidence of efforts to really build
>the community.  There was one meat-space meetup a year ago.  There have
>been a few presentations of what Tez is.
>I do see a fair number of public statements of the form "Tez is
>answer to Impala" or "The future of Hadoop runs on Tez", most of which
>to come out of Hortonworks' marketing department.
>In looking at the dev list back to September of last year, I see a large
>number of procedural messages (votes, results, release mechanics), a few
>user questions (NPE in such and so, how do I install) and very few design
>discussions.  There was one thread last November about combiners, another
>in January about map parallelism, and one more in March about reducer
>parallelism.  To me this looks a lot like a project where all design
>discussions are occurring off-list.
>What I would like to see would include
>- a strong effort on the part of Tez to bring all design and
>discussions to the list,
>- continuous community engagement efforts such as weekly hangouts in
>different timezones to help new contributors understand what is happening
>technically in the project in an interactive setting
>- lots of public talks focussed on how outsiders can contribute and how
>design works
>- cross posting on related projects offering cross pollination
>opportunities.  Such related groups might be Drill, Optiq, Tajo and Spark.
> These postings would say things like "how could you guys help us with
>or "Tez has this and such, would that be helpful to you guys".
>- inviting contributors from related projects to give technical
>presentations in the context of Tez
>Now, my searches have been fairly cursory and could have missed important
>activities, but I have a bit of a hard time believing that I have missed
>major efforts along these lines.
>Based on this evidence, it really does look to me like Tez is a purely
>commercial development masquerading as an Apache community.
>I agree that superficial diversity metrics are counter-productive, but I
>also assert that there isn't any obvious evidence of serious community
>building here and there is significant evidence that building community
>isn't even the point of the project.  That *is* a substantive issue
>relative to graduation.

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