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From Tom Everett <>
Subject Re: Looking for a Champion
Date Tue, 07 May 2013 20:06:50 GMT
Hi Ulrich, thanks for replying.  My response will be a little longer here,
but I think you've asked a really important question, so perhaps it
deserves a good answer.

I have personal experience implementing sites with Stuts2 and MyFaces.  I
did look at Click, and I have some experience with Sling, in the
CQ-Jackrabbit world.  Frankly, it would have been significantly easier to
use existing technology than to implement yet-another-framework.  However,
I felt that the needs I had identified were best served with something new.

Two of the needs I had identified where simplicity and maintainability.
 That's not to say that the existing frameworks are not simple or not
maintainable; they just were not so in the terms that I needed.  The sites
I was working with were primarily UI code (JS, HTML5, CSS3), and needed
minimal server-side support.  That is, they didn't need all the generality
and flexibility of a general purpose framework; they simply needed to be
able to post a form, consume a JSON request and produce a JSON response,
etc.  The target audience is not J2EE programmers; it's UI programmers, or
"browser programmers".

An primary concern was the need for extreme simplicity. I wanted to be able
to turn over applications to junior programmers, interns, or even UI
programmers with minimal J2EE skills, to maintain. So, for example a
Pragmatach app uses maven exclusively to build and produces a war file,
rather than needing to run inside the context of server software (Play) or
build with sbt.  It's not hard to find juniors who can use maven, and
deploy a war file.  Additionally, I did heavily borrow ideas from other
frameworks; the use of annotations from JSF and Struts2 for example.   I
wanted to be able to fully specify a controller in a single .java file, so
rather than a "routes file" (Grails, Play), so I chose to specify routes as
controller annotations and then sort them programmatically to produce a
routes file.

Once applications go live, they have to be operated.  I felt that this was
a missing aspect; there was a tendency to just build out applications and
then hand them over to deploy and run, without providing in-application
support to operate them in the real world.  For that reason I included the
Pragmatach runtime console, and built-in JMX support.  I also wrote a
statsd plugin; that technology is becoming quite popular.

Finally, with respect to Click and Wicket, which are both very cool, I felt
that they were trying to be full-featured frameworks which addressed both
client-side and server-side needs.  I was specifically trying to stay away
from the client side, in order to impose no constraints whatever on the
target audience; client-side programmers.  I tried to provide strong
server-side JSON and XML support, knowing that client-side programmers
prefer to communicate with servers via Ajax & JSON, but I didn't want to go
as far as binding data to widgets, for example.

On Tue, May 7, 2013 at 3:14 AM, Ulrich Stärk <> wrote:

> The ASF is home to a number of web frameworks (e.g. Struts, Wicket,
> Tapestry, Sling, MyFaces, Click,
> ...). Have you thought of contributing to one of those instead of creating
> a completely new
> framework? What was the outcome? Are there cross-pollination
> possibilities? If your goals match with
> the goals of one of these projects, it could be easy to find a champion
> for you from one of these
> communities.
> Uli
> On 07.05.2013 04:01, Tom Everett wrote:
> > Thank-you.  I am looking for both champion and mentors, for this project:
> >
> >
> >
> > I hope that a pdf document is acceptable.  The web site is here
> >
> >
> >
> > If you're interested, there is a web-based presentation here:
> >
> >
> >
> > If there is any more information I can supply that might be of interest
> > please let me know.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mon, May 6, 2013 at 7:29 PM, Suresh Marru <> wrote:
> >
> >> Yes this is the right list for soliciting champion and mentors.
> >>
> >> Suresh
> >>
> >> On May 6, 2013, at 7:04 PM, Tom Everett <> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Good afternoon.
> >>>
> >>> I have a project which I am hoping to submit to the incubator, and I
> >>> understand from the documentation that it is recommended to identify a
> >>> champion prior to the incubator application. Is this mailing list an
> >>> appropriate place to solicit for such a person?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> A better world shall emerge based on faith and understanding  - Douglas
> >>> MacArthur
> >>
> >>
> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> >>
> >>
> >
> >

A better world shall emerge based on faith and understanding  - Douglas

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