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From Ross Gardler <>
Subject Re: Fwd: mentoring individuals as well as projects
Date Wed, 01 Feb 2012 23:15:53 GMT
On 1 February 2012 22:13, Joe Schaefer <> wrote:
> Link:
> It's worthwhile to review the entire surrounding thread in August 2010
> for IPMC members to avoid rehashing old arguments.

Thanks for the reminder Joe. I recall that thread now. I find it
interesting reading my own comments, I was terrified of having to
contradict myself. However, fortunately I still hold the same opinion.

I referred to Wookie in that thread, which was a new podling at the
time. I said the community had more to learn before benefiting from
you proposed experiment, but acknowledged this was because of active
mentorship and good community leadership. Today I find that at least
one member of that community would benefit from being an IPMC member
(as well as the IPMC benefitting). I've not proposed them as I am not
convinced the vote would pass given the current variety of views on
PPMC members being IPMC members.

I also referred to a (then unnamed project) that I felt might
immediately benefit from being a part of your experiment. That project
was Jena. It is currently ramping up to graduation. I'm not a mentor
on that project so can't say whether there are people who would want
to be in the IPMC, but I've watched the lists from a distance and
suspect there are candidates. Certainly Jena is a large project and
has navigated some fairly tricky issues.

Finally, Rave (also preparing to graduate) has at least one *very*
strong candidate for the inclusion in the IPMC.

Given all this and the balance of the discussion back in August 2010
and recent discussions relating to this topic I am +1 for an expansion
of the experiment. I nominate Wookie and Rave as participants. I do
not, at this time nominate other projects I mentor as I am not as
active there and don't feel qualified to make recommendations.



> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Ross Gardler <>
>> To:; Joe Schaefer <>
>> Cc:
>> Sent: Wednesday, February 1, 2012 5:07 PM
>> Subject: Re: Fwd: mentoring individuals as well as projects
>> Joe, can you please restate (or link to the archives) the intent and
>> practice of your "experiment"
>> Ross
>> On 1 February 2012 22:02, Joe Schaefer <> wrote:
>>>  ----- Original Message -----
>>>>  From: Marvin Humphrey <>
>>>>  To:; Joe Schaefer
>> <>
>>>>  Cc:
>>>>  Sent: Wednesday, February 1, 2012 3:03 PM
>>>>  Subject: Re: Fwd: mentoring individuals as well as projects
>>>>  On Wed, Feb 01, 2012 at 09:32:23AM -0800, Joe Schaefer wrote:
>>>>>   I believe this is what Marvin is alluding to when he points out
>> that
>>>>>   compentent IPMC oversight is little more than an illusive myth on
>> most
>>>>>   of our podlings.
>>>>  A PPMC member, by virtue of their deep familiarity with the code base
>> and
>>>>  close monitoring of ongoing development, is, once they have
>> internalized ASF
>>>>  values and studied relevant legal issues, in a *better* position to
>> review a
>>>>  release and protect their project's integrity than any Mentor.
>>>>>   We rely on the committers to police themselves and we trust that
>> they do,
>>>>>   but we do not, as a group, empower such people to perform that
>> work on
>>>>>   behalf of the IPMC.
>>>>  Giving suitably diligent podling contributors real oversight
>> responsibility
>>>>  and accountability while they are still in the Incubator, allowing them
>> to
>>>>  serve alongside experienced Mentors, watch them, ask them questions and
>>>>  participate in their struggle... that's what, in my opinion, will
>> prepare
>>>>  them to become superior stewards of their projects after graduation.
>>>  Agreed Marvin, but we have a long way to go before people will ever realize
>>>  this approach will largely solve our outstanding problems regarding IPMC
>> releases.
>>>  People have to feel comfortable relaxing control of the reigns, and let go
>>>  of the idea that only a very limited and special group of people are
>> capable
>>>  of performing real oversight for the foundation.
>>>  It's not easy, and it's certainly not conducive to Western ways of
>> thinking
>>>  about governance and society.  But it works.
>>>  IMO we should proceed the same way as always, by taking small and largely
>>>  reversible steps.  Let's expand the "experiment" I started in
>> 2010 to another
>>>  handful of projects, and see what really happens.  I suggest we include
>>>  ManifoldCF for now.  Any others willing to participate?
>>>  ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>  To unsubscribe, e-mail:
>>>  For additional commands, e-mail:
>> --
>> Ross Gardler (@rgardler)
>> Programme Leader (Open Development)
>> OpenDirective

Ross Gardler (@rgardler)
Programme Leader (Open Development)

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