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From "Noel J. Bergman" <>
Subject RE: [VOTE] Policy on Initial Committership
Date Sun, 08 Oct 2006 06:09:41 GMT
Roy T. Fielding wrote:

> Noel J. Bergman wrote:
>> Roy T. Fielding wrote:
>>> The only question is what authority is granted to the PPMC by the
>>> Incubator, and every podling since Geronimo has acted according to
>>> the policy that all decisions are made by the PPMC with a minimal
>>> quorum of three PMC +1 votes.
>> EXACTLY!  A minimum of three PMC +1 votes.  Because that's what we
>> need, and those are the ones that are binding.  Without that
>> minimum quorum of three PMC +1 votes, you don't have enough
>> binding votes.
> Every vote that counts toward the majority is a binding vote.
> If the PPMC members out-vote the PMC members on any issue, the
> majority still carries.  If a committer can veto a commit, then
> they have a binding vote.  Are you using the term differently?

See below.

> I really don't understand how you can expect a PPMC to make a
> decision on anything if they can't vote and be counted.  I
> thought that is why we created PPMCs.

I expect non-PMC members on the PPMC to vote as if their votes matter and
ignore the technicality, but unless/until the ASF Board indicates that there
is a change in ASF policy regarding non-PMC members and binding votes, those
votes are advisory only.

That said, I expect the Mentors to make sure that there are sufficient
binding votes to allow the project to make decisions.  And to also instill
the idea that the goal is a consensus; if you're counting votes to see who
wins, that's not a consensus.

> I wanted to put everyone on the Incubator PMC and thus solve both
> but others were satisfied by the delegation

The vast majority of all Committers on Incubator projects have precisely
zero history with the ASF. many lack it with Open Source at all, and should
not be given binding decisions from day zero.  You talk about people earning
their Committer rights, and how you have a higher bar for that so that by
the time you elect them as a Committer you're ready to trust them with
decision making.  Well, on day zero, they have earned nothing so far in
terms of ASF decision making, and yet they must have commit rights in order
for the project to progress.

When they leave the Incubator, they will either move to TLP status, gain PMC
rights, and have binding decisions; or they will be incorporated into some
existing TLP, whose PMC will make the decisions.  I've already commented on
the unfairness of graduating into an existing TLP and not being made a PMC
member of the relevant PMC.

	--- Noel

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