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From "Noel J. Bergman" <>
Subject RE: Problem with commit rights on Celtixfire
Date Sun, 01 Oct 2006 17:05:37 GMT

> setting aside the particulars, this worries me from a process perspective.

> the initial list of committers was elected by the incubator PMC as
> part of the approval process. IMO the incubator PMC cannot provide
> oversight if we delegate power to the PPMCs to change their terms of
> reference without a binding decision.

The Incubator PMC, as a general rule, is probably not in the best position
to determine whom should be on the Committers list initially, and we
certainly have rarely if ever taken the time in most cases to review each

That's part of the problem.  Sometimes there is piling on, and sometimes
there are good reasons for including someone.  I heard both sides of that
from the same people involved in CeltiXFire (as in "THOSE people are piling
on, but THESE people we want", and we've certainly heard it from other

This is why I keep pushing back with the idea that we bootstrap in a defined

 - The Incubator PMC sets the Mentors, who form the initial PPMC
 - The PPMC (Mentors) elects additional PPMC members
 - The PPMC elects Committers

This is simple and human driven, delegating decisions in the normal ASF
manner.  And so long as we meet the standard criteria (at least 3 +1 from
Incubator PMC members -- again, this is why each project SHOULD have at
least 3 Mentors -- and proper notice to the PMC throughout the voting
process), it should work well.

> i would expect any decision made about varying the initial comitters
> list to appear in the private list of the podling together with at
> least 3 +1's binding on apache (from incubator PMC members). i've
> searched the lists and cannot find such a VOTE nor even any
> discussion.

As above.  :-)

	--- Noel

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