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From Mark Little <>
Subject Re: Problem with commit rights on Celtixfire
Date Fri, 06 Oct 2006 21:05:45 GMT

On 6 Oct 2006, at 21:34, Rodent of Unusual Size wrote:

> Hash: SHA1
> Mark Little wrote:
>>> 1) ASF is a meritocracy.
>> And people learn by questioning, not by being passive observers!
> Actually, I think that's patently false.  You never learned
> anything from a book?  Or a lecture?  Or a discussion?

Hmmm. Now isn't it a discussion that we've been having?

> And people gain merit by doing, not by learning.  The
> learning comes first, naturally. :-)

Kind of depends what's involved in "doing".

>> And everyone makes mistakes (including you, myself and people in
>> Apache). To believe otherwise is to not live in the real world.
> True enough.
>> To not question others is to live in a totalitarian regime.
> No, that's when you're not *allowed* to question.

Quite right ;-)

> Being able
> to but not doing so is of debatable utility.

I think you made my point better than I did. Thanks :-)

>   Assuming you're
> right without asking questions, in opposition to others with
> more experience in the subject, is likewise typically suboptimal.

Oh, I did ask questions. Remember the first email?

>> So let's try to take this to some "logical" conclusion: you're saying
>> that just because person A says something that person B disagrees
>> with, person B should then accept that because person A is somehow
>> more experienced?
> I don't think that's Leo's point.  I suspect the one he's
> trying to make is that the above is a perfect opportunity
> to ask those questions you mentioned, rather than dogmatically
> assuming irreducible incompatibility.
> Of course, you might want to check your facts. :-)


>> Even factoring experience in (and experience ranges across a lot of
>> different areas, and I admit to being lacking in Apache experience
>> compared to many others, but certainly not lacking in the field of
>> computing), that's a crazy way to think.
> 'Even factoring in?'  Leo's whole point is about experience;
> it's not something to be 'factored into' the discussion with
> him.  And experience with Apache is the issue here, not
> general industry-wide credentials.  And I don't think it's
> particularly crazy for someone who is less-experienced to
> provisionally assume a more-experienced person is correct
> when there's a difference of opinion.  Would you argue with
> a haematologist about the meaning of rouleaux formations
> in a blood sample, even if you're a qualified dermatologist?
> Or would you perhaps assume he knew what he was talking
> about, and maybe ask questions about the subject?

I did ask, now didn't I?

>> I'm sorry but I don't recall reading in any of the Apache literature
>> that a frontal lobotomy was a pre-requisite to joining!
> That's more than a little over the top.  I doubt remarks
> like that are going to help foster community and peer
> relationships.

Given the previous comments in the email, I disagree. But then you  
probably expected me to say that anyway.

>> So lemmings are the kind of individuals you want in Apache? People
>> who just follow without questioning?
> More of the same, alas.
>> I think your comments show a level of naivete and to be honest, are
>> uncalled for.
> I hope you won't be surprised or insulted if anyone
> extends you the same courtesy.

That's fair enough. At this stage none of us are talking entirely  

>> Processes (governments, corporate, open source etc.) grown and evolve
>> because people question them and push the boundaries. I think the
>> original point of this thread was such a push.
> If so, I respectfully suggest that you might consider
> finding a different way of expressing yourself.  This
> one seems to have polarised some people against you.

Going back to facts: you need to get all of yours right first. I (and  
others) did try other avenues of expressing and querying first.  
Several. Over the course of weeks. This was the last frustrated  
effort before giving up, to be perfectly honest!

> And that's something that can laid wholly at their doors;

I assume you meant "cannot be".

> you need to take some responsibility for it as well.

I'm not (and won't) point the finger of blame at anyone. As I said to  
Leo, we all make mistakes. I hope that as a community we can learn  
from this and try to move on with no negative feelings: I certainly  
don't have any.

>>> That mindset somehow tends to start with "the people around me are
>>> trying to do the Right Thing", if you can't bring yourself around
>>> to that world view, you might as well look for a more productive
>>> environment right now.
>> Huh? OK, so you obviously live in some alternative reality to the
>> real world ;-) I'm happy to take this offline, because it is no
>> longer relevant to this discussion.
> I disagree.  Leo's remark is spot-on and highly relevant.  If
> you are not interested in learning how things are done at the
> ASF, and choose to assume axiomatically you know better than the
> people who have been there for years, then you shouldn't be here.

I didn't assume that. What I did assume was that people make mistakes  
and that certain actions appeared to be against Apache rules/ 
processes. Bringing those issues to the fore (either to be told my  
suppositions were wrong, or for things to be corrected) was the ONLY  
reason behind the email I sent. Maybe this isn't what Leo meant, but  
his comment read like I should have just accepted what was happening  
in silence and assumed it was the Right Thing.

> CeltixFire will not succeed here without fitting into the Apache
> milieu.  Variety is welcomed; fundamental and incompatible
> differences of view are not.
>>> Secondly, I suggest you learn, and learn right now, to stop writing
>>> things along the lines of ``is random denial of initial committers
>>> typical?'' or ``I've used the Redhat/JBoss example already,
>> Get off your soapbox and stop trying to make this personal. To the
>> best of my knowledge, until this email this entire thread was not
>> personal. It was about people trying to figure out the right thing to
>> do in a complex situation.
> I think Leo was saying, in his blunt way, the same thing I
> did above: intentional or not, your manner of expression
> is not regarded by some as conducive to friendly discourse.

It's definitely not a one-way street either. I can blame frustration  
on my part, plus the fact that email is a poor medium for these kinds  
of discussions. I'm prepared to draw a line under this and move on a  
little bit more enlightened (positive statement, so don't  
misinterpret) about the Apache process and community.

>> Well if you're ever willing to enter into a reasoned discussion about
>> this as everyone else appears to be, let me know. Until then I'll
>> treat this email as static.
> You might want to check your facts.

No comment. I think we should just move on.


> - --
> #ken	P-)}
> Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini  http://Ken.Coar.Org/
> Author, developer, opinionist      http://Apache-Server.Com/
> "Millennium hand and shrimp!"
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