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From Leo Simons <>
Subject Re: [discussion] Harmony podling to ask for vote for graduation
Date Thu, 19 Oct 2006 08:18:50 GMT
On Oct 18, 2006, at 8:04 PM, Mads Toftum wrote:
> On Wed, Oct 18, 2006 at 07:10:37PM +0200, Mads Toftum wrote:
>> On the surface everything appears fine to the point of graduating  
>> minus
>> the proving that you can do a release. But given past experiences  
>> with
>> graduating large projects too fast,

Do note that harmony has been set up for a different kind of  
incubation from day 0 as part of all the lessons learned from  
previous big-project incubations.

>> I'd be much in favor of keeping
>> Harmony in incubation for another 6 months - it worries me  
>> slightly that
>> you seem to be in haste to move on almost immediately after all
>> requirements look ok, not giving it a bit of time to prove that  
>> this is
>> not just a temporary state.

All requirements looked ok (goes check his harmony-thoughts.txt...) 5  
months ago. We didn't move on then, just to give it another few  
months to make sure we were in a stable state.

>> Also there's the whole issue of Sun and
>> opensourcing java - sure, it shouldn't affect Harmony directly,  
>> but on
>> the other hand I see a risk there (not great, but they may  
>> surprise us).

At apachecon in austin last week, there was an "open source java  
UnBOF" with harmony people, sun people, a whole range of ASF members  
there, including most of the board, and other people. I think  
afterwards there were various mixed opinions on various things  
(inevitable with that kind of crowd), but I know I (and others) came  
away with that feeling reassured that the whole sun opensources java  
thing wouldn't negatively affect harmony.

In any case, I don't think that's any kind of concern for the incubator.

>> Just my EUR.02s worth on non-binding -1.

Note that, as an ASF member, you can ask to be on the incubator PMC,  
and then your vote would be binding. I don't think it matters much --  
non-binding votes tend to be taken seriously as well.

> Gah, that went out a bit too fast. I missed saying that I'm biased by
> thinking that the project should never have happened in the first  
> place.
> Not so much that there shouldn't be an a free implementation of java -
> but that a project like this is bound to grow to a size where it  
> doesn't
> fit with the rest of the foundation. Implementing a whole language is
> big enough that there's plenty of foundations out there doing nothing
> but a language implementation (perl, python, ....) - I think that  
> would
> be the best for a project like Harmony as well.

Fair enough. I would say that this is sort of a foundation-level  
concern, but in terms of how incubation works right now, I think we  
shouldn't factor that into the "graduate or not" decision. If  
"harmony" ever becomes something that doesn't fit the rest of the  
foundation (I just don't see that right now), I think that should be  
addressed then, independently of whether it is incubating or not.

> The other bit is the speed at which it happened - I'd expected Harmony
> to be in the incubator for years and now it is aiming for graduation
> less than 18 months later without having even neared the first  
> release.

Yeah, harmony development is going at an amazing pace. I had never  
expected it to be where it is now this soon. Yet everything seems to  
be in place for that development pace to continue.

> So, that's what my reluctance to letting Harmony graduate is about -
> feel free to ignore it.

It is not ignored.


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