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From Tim Ellison <>
Subject Re: Checkpoint on Harmony (Re: [discussion] Harmony podling to ask for vote for graduation)
Date Fri, 20 Oct 2006 10:34:41 GMT
Greg Stein wrote:
> On 10/19/06, Roy T. Fielding <> wrote:
> Right. I said it would be useful to see if the community can make it
> happen. I know that *some individuals* can, but that is different. I
> didn't vote, I didn't say it was a requirement, just asked: why can't
> you pull together a *developer* release. Not TCK'd, not for Joe User,
> but something more formal than "here is a snap of Subversion".
> Something that developers in and around the Incubator can try. Or
> simply for (Incubator) people to observe how you plan to organize the
> community to get a release out the door.

To be clear, our snapshots are more than a simple snap of Subversion --
we (the Harmony community) discuss the right time to create the
development snapshot to accommodate known instability caused by work in
flight, publish the snapshot with the required incubator disclaimers,
license and notice files etc., and encourage people to test them and
report problems before we announce them on our website news page.

Here's an example of an early dev list announcement [1] and here's
another more recent one [2].  I'd encourage you to take a look at the
project home page News section to see when we published snapshots.

Anyone can download a snapshot and run non-trivial Java programs,
granted these are the bleeding-edge heroes [3] and I'd be delighted to
see more of them.


> Without seeing that, you could graduate to a TLP that may be fully
> incapable of producing a release. Ever. I have zero indication that
> the Harmony community can actually produce releases. Code, yes.
> Releases, no.

I'd argue that the community has shown it can organize around the tasks
required to get a release out of the door.

Besides the dry-runs of producing development snapshots, our
discussions, issue resolution and tasks that the project mentors have
described on this list demonstrate that the community can pull it
together and produce a final 'delivery'.  We've done it in code, IP
issues, technical decisions, and so on.

> Don't you think it would be a useful experiment for the Harmony
> community? Or are you viewing it solely as make-work? That you're
> confident that the Harmony community will not suffer problems that
> we've seen in other communities around their release processes?

I'm genuinely interested to hear about some of these problems, so I can
selfishly look for warning signs in the Harmony project.  However, the
issue seems to be how to persuade the IPMC that the Harmony community is
capable of conducting a release.  I hope you'd accept the mentors'
evaluation of how Harmony has been conducting itself to date, plus the
evidence of the history of the project in agreeing on a common
objective, and achieving it.  If we need to produce a download that
fulfils the release checklist, then I say we should just do it.

> The decision is certainly the community's (actually... where are
> they? why is Geir the only active Harmony person in this
> conversation?). I'd like to hear the community say, "nah. we think
> that would be busy work with no utility." Fair answer, but I will
> note that nobody has made a clear statement like that. Talked around
> the issue, but never directly answered.

I'm on the Harmony PPMC and avidly following the discussion, which I
took to be a mentors/champions open conversation with the IPMC.  IMHO I
don't think it would be helpful for a bunch of Harmonizers to show up
mob handed asking for graduation, but I'm sure it could be arranged if
it would impress you <g>.

Conducting a release, even a faux release, is probably a make-work task
-- I believe we can do it if that is the only concern, just don't move
the goalposts until we get back ;-)


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