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From "Geir Magnusson Jr." <>
Subject Re: [discussion] Harmony podling to ask for vote for graduation
Date Thu, 19 Oct 2006 02:12:37 GMT

robert burrell donkin wrote:
> On 10/18/06, Geir Magnusson Jr. <> wrote:
>> robert burrell donkin wrote:
>> > On 10/18/06, Greg Stein <> wrote:
>> >> You said that you have run Tomcat on top of Harmony. Why can't you
>> >> produce a release such that I can throw the Tomcat jar at it, too?
>> >> Sure, it is a developer release, but it let's non-Harmony folks play
>> >> with your project.
>> >
>> > i'd like to give harmony a spin as well :-)
>> Go for it.  We're really interested in people's feedback.
> i will do once there's something more than a snapshot :-)

That's up to you, of course.

>> >> Is there a specific problem with producing a developer release?
>> >
>> > releases come in many forms :-)
>> >
>> > it's usual to think of an easy-to-use ready-to-run binary aimed at end
>> > users called something like httpd-2.0.59. i agree that harmony isn't
>> > ready for something like that nor would the effort of producing
>> > something like that be at all worthwhile.
>> >
>> > but at an essential level, all that's require is to vote, tag the
>> > source and create a tarball of the tagged source.
>> >
>> > harmony already does something similar for daily snapshots. IMHO the
>> > next step would be to start cutting milestones each week or two so
>> > they can be picked up with a little more certainty than the daily
>> > snapshots. perhaps name them after the week they were cut
>> > (harmony-M3406, say).
>> >
>> > i think harmony is more than ready to take this step.
>> I think that the core issue is "can the community govern itself in an
>> Apache manner", which is the core driver behind the "do a release"
>> suggestion.  I'm guessing that the "do a release" suggestion is simply a
>> mechanism for PMC members to get information on which to make a decision.
> yep
> (but i do think harmony should start creating milestones very soon)

This is the thing I don't get - Harmony's choices for how and when we do 
milestones is completely orthogonal to the values of a healthy, 
meritocratic, collaborative community that the incubator is tasked with 
creating.  The fact that we are making these choices, and not just 
following a rote procedure, says something to the health and well-being 
of Harmony, IMO.

>> Will you (and others that have questions) be satisfied if other mentors
>> provide similar assessments as I have as to community status and ability
>> to self-govern?
> i can speak only for myself. i've been subscribed to harmony for many
> months and am convinced on both those counts.
> the source is the heart of any apache release. most issues with
> releases are actually issues with the source. a community that does
> not understand how to create source that can be released cannot (in my
> opinion) graduate.

But then you are aware that we always have been very careful about our 
source.  We have created oversight processes specifically tailored to 
special IP issues we face, and consider this on every contribution, and 
every third- party dependency we use.

> personally speaking, (in this case) i'd probably be satisfied to
> review a snapshot or the tree rather than a sample release but is less
> convenient and risks the graduation vote becoming,  i think
> that a vote and tag would be cleaner and easier. i'll try to find some
> time in the next few days to go through one of the snapshots.

I am hoping that the statements from the other mentors will be more than 
sufficient to convince you and others that have these doubts.  Stefano 
has written one, and I've pinged Dims and Leo to also post their 
thoughts, whatever they are.  You can guess mine, of course :) (You can 
get a preview of the others by reading the recent harmony-private traffic)

I'm not trying to be difficult. I just was trying to indicate that there 
are other methods - more complete methods IMO - of determining community 
health, and quite frankly, while releasing properly is very important, I 
think that the Harmony community has demonstrated that it works together 
collaboratively, understands issues regarding source licensing and 
provenance, dependency licensing, and how to play with each other in a 
positive and productive way.

If the mentor statements aren't enough, I'm happy to help the community 
through a release process demonstration tomorrow, but I really hope, as 
an ASF member and Incubator PMC member, that we're careful not to be too 
  prescriptive, and lean toward a more holistic approach to rating 
health and success capability of the podlings under our oversight.


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