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From "Noel J. Bergman" <>
Subject RE: [doc] Roles and Responsibilities Update Needed [WAS Re: Mentors - the more, the merrier?]
Date Mon, 17 Jul 2006 23:43:53 GMT

Thanks.  So let's clarify some of these issues (out of order from your

> > [The need for a Mentor to be an ASF Member was] imposed by
> > no other agency than the Incubator PMC, itself.

> A need imposed by the board when it created the Incubator with a given
> purpose that cannot be achieved without a member in the loop.

I am not aware of that being imposed by the Board.  It is not present in the
Resolution (, and
checking with Greg, he is not aware of the Board having set that
requirement.  But I am willing to ask for the Board to make a clear
statement if necessary.

On the educated assumption that they will say that it is up to the Incubator
PMC, which I expect, let's examine the rest of the issues.

>>>> We just voted to elect a non-Member ASF Officer to the Incubator
>>>> PMC in order for him to act as Mentor for the projects sponsored
>>>> by the PMC of which he is the PMC Chair.  Do we wish to declare
>>>> that election and process null and void?  Or do you concur that
>>>> the Incubator PMC has the right to elect whom it feels appropriate
>>>> to execute the role, based upon its collective human judgement?
>>> The Incubator PMC decided that only an ASF member can qualify as
>>> being a Mentor, period.
>> And has, on more than one occasion, voted in violation of that
>> decision.
> No, it hasn't.  Some people may have voted for a project proposal
> without realizing that the Mentor is not an ASF member, and that
> may have  allowed an invalid proposal to pass.  It should not happen.

That's one interpretation, but I don't believe that the facts bear it out,
since it was clear that the Officer in question is (a) not an ASF Member,
and (b) was being voted on specifically to Mentor those projects, which have
no other Mentor (an issue to be addressed orthogonally).  And that's only
one of several such occasions.  But, again, that's past.  Let's deal with
now and forward.

> > So at least some months ago, we started talking (more than once on
> > this list) about Mentors being just the active Incubator PMC members
> > involved in the project.  But that is neither here nor there at this
> > point.  What matters is the consensus going forward.

> We have talked about a lot of things -- the policy has not changed.

I'll bring up a formal vote to address it.

> Every incubator project must have at least one Mentor who is an ASF
> member.  The reason is because only an ASF member has access to
> everything in the ASF, which is sometimes necessary for a podling
> to know what it should be doing in any given situation.

Now *that* is something I can concur with, because you are correct that even
non-Member Officers lack access to certain information.  But I'll note that
you refer to "at least one Mentor who is an ASF Member" -- it is easy to
read that as suggesting that there can be other Mentors who are not.  I
don't mean that to sound like being hoist by your own petard; just noting
that the imprecision sometimes present in the English language allows
multiple valid interpretations of intended meaning.

I'm happy to put forth a vote of the form:

     An Incubator Project SHOULD have at least three (3) Mentors,
     of which at least one (1) Mentor MUST be an ASF Member.  All
     Mentors MUST be members of the Incubator PMC.

I'd accept that as a reasonable compromise.

Personally, any non-Member whom I would vote to use as a Mentor would be
someone I'd expect to nominate or see nominated for Membership at the next

> The fact that we trust these people implicitly doesn't make up for the
> that they do not have access to the private information needed to mentor a
> podling.  That private information includes, among other things, the sum
> all mistakes made by previous Apache projects.

Interesting elaboration on your earlier point, although I believe that
you're taking it too far by insisting that such information is so vital on a
normal basis as to preclude non-Members from serving as Mentors.  As for the
Board voting non-Members to be Officers, you can discuss that with the Board

	--- Noel

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