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From Dain Sundstrom <>
Subject Re: Ode Proposal (Sybase BPEL engine donation))
Date Thu, 16 Feb 2006 00:43:58 GMT
I guess I was just reacting to the complete dismissal by Noel.  In  
the middle of a vote on the Geronimo PMC, we get a message that  
effectively the Incubator has stepped in and has take over this  
proposal.  Now, stop and wait before responding to that statement and  
let me explain.  The normal process, as I understand it, for a new  
podling is a proposal is posted to a some dev list saying, "I'd like  
to start a project in the incubator to create X, are you willing to  
sponsor it?"  The PMC evaluates it and votes.  This normal process  
was interrupted by Noel simply stating that the Incubator has decided  
to sponsor it.  There was no public discussion and this proposal was  
never even presented to the Incubator PMC for sponsorship.  I have  
never seen this happen before and it came with a very dismissive note  
(my reading).

I find it very frustrating that in my mind the policies and  
procedures in the incubator keep changing.  When I point this out I  
get accused of various things such as "protecting turf".  Greg, I can  
understand why you see it that way, but I am simply trying to follow  
policy, precedent and the Apache Way.  Anyway, no need to respond,  
I'm just frustrated.

I'm going to try to stay out of the rest of this discussion, but  
before I go, I suggest that ALL of you go back to your open source  
roots and reexamine this whole situation.  There are a very few  
people in this discussion that actually want to work on a BPEL engine  
or integrate it into a project.  If your not one of them, take a step  
back and let the community decide how they want to handle the code.   
If the want to work together, we should support them.  If the don't  
want to work together and decide to fork it into three competing  
projects, we should support them.  If they want to hard code in  
dependencies on any technology, we should support them.  If they want  
to rewrite it in COBOL, we should support them.  They are the  
community and we should support them.


/me crawls back under his flame proof rock

On Feb 15, 2006, at 4:11 PM, Greg Stein wrote:

> [trimmed individuals and pmc's from the cc: list]
> On Wed, Feb 15, 2006 at 03:22:23PM -0800, Dain Sundstrom wrote:
>> On Feb 15, 2006, at 3:09 PM, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
>>> Sanjiva,
>>>> - Given the, um, strong feelings expressed by so many people about
>>>> this project, how about if we get the Incubator PMC to sponsor this
>>>> poddling?
>>> Agreed.  That is what I said to the Geronimo PMC, as well.  The
>>> Incubator PMC will sponsor the project.
>> ...
>> I know it doesn't mean much, but I personally would like to see this
>> as a Geronimo sponsored project.  We are the ones that have taken the
>> licks over this for the past 2 weeks and would really like to work to
>> carry this through the full process.
>> So to flip things around on you...
>>   There is no need for the Incubator PMC to sponsor.  The Geronimo
>> PMC will sponsor the project.
>> Thanks for your understanding.
> A number of folks here in the Incubator believe it is best to
> establish a community with no prior ties, and have repeated that on a
> number of occasions (including Sanjiva's and Noel's comments today).
> The general belief is that this will create a better community around
> the ASF's BPEL work.
> Part of the problem that I'm seeing is you use of "we" in your
> message. Who is "we"? And that leads to, who is "not we"? Why is there
> a partition? I believe this is one of the primary issues that is being
> dealt with right now, Dain. You are dividing BPEL workers into a "we"
> and "others" camp.
> Or, let's just say that was a random term to refer to the Geronimo
> project and you're not really seeing two groups. i.e. not fair of me
> to assign that way of thinking to you. Okay. So moving on: why is it
> important for this to be Geronimo sponsored? Why? Seriously. WTF does
> it matter?
> We've already said the IP clearance paperwork is the same no matter
> what. Great. Get that done and start working. When BPEL is ready to
> graduate, then we look at where it goes. Quite possibly Geronimo. But
> what does it matter that Geronimo is the sponsor? Why are you so keyed
> in on that?
> I can clearly see benefits with "absence of ties". I don't see the
> benefit of Geronimo sponsoring that you're seeing. And without that
> understanding, then I get to make up crazy reasons :-P
> Cheers,
> -g
> -- 
> Greg Stein,
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