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From Leo Simons <>
Subject Re: Geronimo and Incubation
Date Sat, 04 Feb 2006 21:17:51 GMT
Hi Aaron!

On Sat, Feb 04, 2006 at 03:02:23PM -0500, Aaron Mulder wrote:
> If you want to involve the community outside the various PMCs, then

Heh. This ain't just open source, its open "just about everything". Of
course I want the wider (developer) community involved...I'd hope
everyone wants that -- its one of the fundamental pillars upon which
apache is built!

> IMHO it might be helpful for you to list or point to a writeup of the
> duties of the incubator PMC. 

No problem! The incubator front page at

is in large part devoted to being that writeup.

> I'm not at all clear on what the
> incubator is supposed to do other than vet code and the somewhat
> abstract "ensure healthy communities". 

If you want to get a clearer picture, please do spend some time reading
the incubator website and the general@incubator archives at

A lot has been said about precisely this previously.

> If the code has been vetted,

Actually, the incubator is (among other things) there to ensure that
new stuff entering the ASF is vetted, but less so to actually /do/ the
"code vetting" - the responsibility for actually doing that is pretty
much completely delegated to other PMCs, or to a PPMC (like geronimo
once had).

Note there is no "the" code I referred to. However, according to the
status files for the subprojects under incubation on behalf of geronimo,
there's a whole bunch of code that hasn't been vetted just yet.

> it seems clear to me that the Geronimo community is healthy

I did not intend to question the health of the Geronimo community in
general in my previous email. What I talked about (and questioned) was
the health of the interaction between the geronimo project and the
incubation process, and more specifically the interaction between the
body responsible for oversight of the geronimo project (its PMC) and the
incubation process.

> and (with
> and without the addition of the proposed subprojects) growing, so I'm
> wondering what else the incubator PMC feels responsible for.

Once again, please do note my email was not on behalf of the incubator
PMC but completely on personal title. However, to answer your question,

spells out precisely what the incubator PMC is responsible for.

> I'm also
> wondering why adding code and contributors to an existing healthy
> project would be a bad thing. 

I would too. Its usually a Good Thing(tm). I don't understand where this
comment is coming from at all. I certainly did not mean to imply anything
along these lines. I'm sorry if that wasn't clear.

> About the only thing that seems like a
> problem to me (other than certain explosive e-mails, which in the main
> did not seem to be from Geronimo or incubating-project members), is
> the issue of proposed committers who did not actually contribute to
> the projects in question (bearing in mind that code is not the only
> possible type of contribution).

I explicitly didn't try to compile a list of problems. That's just a really
painful process which leads to lots of discussion and friction. While that
may be fruitful, I don't think it would help for me to try and be a part of
that process.

Please do recognize there is a lot of information from private mailing lists
and off-list conversations that can lead to a perspective different from
yours. There's unfortunately preciously little I can do personally about
reconciling this difference since it is not appropriate for me to disclose
details from private discussions.

IMNSHO, most of these kinds of talks should be had on public mailing lists.
So even though I can't quote from private archives, I can certainly make my
own contributions "as public as possible". Let's hope others do as well.



<snip content="my first email in this thread"/>

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