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From "Roy T. Fielding" <>
Subject Re: [PROPOSAL] Incubate Tuscany SOA Project
Date Thu, 01 Dec 2005 20:51:02 GMT
On Dec 1, 2005, at 3:13 AM, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
> On Nov 30, 2005, at 3:43 PM, Roy T. Fielding wrote:
>> As much as I would enjoy seeing two umbrella projects duel over
>> an amorphous set of marketing terms invented by IBM, I think the
>> ASF should be developing products, not architectural styles.
>> Although, calling SOA an architectural style would imply that it has
>> some constraints -- does anyone know what they are?
> Aren't you being a *tad* harsh here, Roy?  The proposal isn't to  
> develop an architectural style, but software for people working in  
> that style. (Whatever that is...)

Not really.  When I am harsh, LCD screens melt.

> So it's fair to take pot shots at SOA - we all do - but I think  
> there's an earnest effort here, and there's code that will seed it.

Sure, but unless the proposal reflects that effort I will vote  
against it.
SOA should not be the proposal.  What dims described is much better.

Just to be entirely blunt, any vague container proposal is doomed to
failure as a collaboration because it is nothing more than a design
pissing contest.  There has to be some common goal that is clearly
definable in order for a group of independent collaborators to keep
from strangling each other over a long-term project.  The key to
such projects is to define the goal and desired properties up front
so that everyone entering the project agrees to them and thus have
objective criteria over which they can evaluate designs.  The criteria
can change over time, provided the project agrees to that change.
People who want to pursue different goals or maintain a different
set of criteria can start a competing project.  I personally like
it when Apache competes with itself.

So, that is what I want to see in an incubator proposal.  I want to
see a clear indication that the project is something that a group
of independent software developers can collaborate on without ASF
board intervention.


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