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From Ted Leung <>
Subject Re: AJAX Toolkit Framework Proposal
Date Wed, 21 Dec 2005 10:18:11 GMT

On Dec 21, 2005, at 12:56 AM, Sanjiva Weerawarana wrote:

> On Tue, 2005-12-20 at 22:10 -0800, Cliff Schmidt wrote:
> However, after having been on the other side of this discussion during
> the Synapse startup with the hullabaloo caused by ObjectWeb folks, I
> have no patience for any kind of "this space is mine, you keep to  
> yours"
> type nonsense. I totally agree that the only discussion here should be
> does ASF want to take this on or not, not on whether Eclipse folks  
> feel
> it "rightfully" belongs there or not. (No Mike, I'm not saying you  
> said
> that!)
>>  I strongly believe that the ASF is not an island in the
>> world of open source, and that it is good for us and all participants
>> in open source if we do what we can to minimize communication  
>> problems
>> about projects that others may have an interest in.
> Indeed. However, the corporate interest of a foundation has much  
> lesser
> weight in my book than what other ASFers think in evaluating this  
> stuff.

I don't think it's that simple.   There's also the corporate interest  
of IBM and Zimbra in bringing this to Apache.   Generally speaking, I  
consider any open source foundation to be more my ally than any  
corporation or group of corporations.   I've been doing a lot more in  
the broader open source community recently, and discovered that  
Apache is not universally well-regarded.  I have heard it suggested  
that we are becoming the Microsoft of open source.   If part of the  
core Apache values are around community, why shouldn't that extend to  
the broader open source community as well?

I'd love to have a good AJAX project here at Apache, but I'm not at  
all convinced that this is the best way to get it.   I also talked to  
Alex Russell at Dojo about coming to the ASF (at this year's OSCON),  
and the overhead thing was already on his radar.   Perhaps we ought  
to be more concerned about making ourselves attractive to projects  
like Dojo.  We already know that the corporations see the value of  
the Apache brand.   Ask yourself why a small innovative project like  
Dojo would rather stay out of the ASF.   Wouldn't they benefit more  
from the Apache name than IBM and Zimbra?   An Apache branded AJAX  
toolkit would be seriously looked at just because of the branding.    
I would hate to be a party to helping a so-so AJAX toolkit displace a  
really good one, just because the so-so one came to the incubator and  
the other one didn't.

I haven't looked at the code in question and I'm not a Javascript  
expert by any means.   But if Martin's analysis of the codebase is  
correct, then I'd vote no.

Ted Leung                          Blog: <>
PGP Fingerprint: 1003 7870 251F FA71 A59A  CEE3 BEBA 2B87 F5FC 4B42

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