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From Davanum Srinivas <>
Subject Re: [PROPOSAL] Incubate Tuscany SOA Project
Date Thu, 01 Dec 2005 21:26:35 GMT
Am with you Roy :)

-- dims

On 12/1/05, Roy T. Fielding <> wrote:
> On Dec 1, 2005, at 3:13 AM, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
> > On Nov 30, 2005, at 3:43 PM, Roy T. Fielding wrote:
> >
> >> As much as I would enjoy seeing two umbrella projects duel over
> >> an amorphous set of marketing terms invented by IBM, I think the
> >> ASF should be developing products, not architectural styles.
> >> Although, calling SOA an architectural style would imply that it has
> >> some constraints -- does anyone know what they are?
> >
> > Aren't you being a *tad* harsh here, Roy?  The proposal isn't to
> > develop an architectural style, but software for people working in
> > that style. (Whatever that is...)
> Not really.  When I am harsh, LCD screens melt.
> > So it's fair to take pot shots at SOA - we all do - but I think
> > there's an earnest effort here, and there's code that will seed it.
> Sure, but unless the proposal reflects that effort I will vote
> against it.
> SOA should not be the proposal.  What dims described is much better.
> Just to be entirely blunt, any vague container proposal is doomed to
> failure as a collaboration because it is nothing more than a design
> pissing contest.  There has to be some common goal that is clearly
> definable in order for a group of independent collaborators to keep
> from strangling each other over a long-term project.  The key to
> such projects is to define the goal and desired properties up front
> so that everyone entering the project agrees to them and thus have
> objective criteria over which they can evaluate designs.  The criteria
> can change over time, provided the project agrees to that change.
> People who want to pursue different goals or maintain a different
> set of criteria can start a competing project.  I personally like
> it when Apache competes with itself.
> So, that is what I want to see in an incubator proposal.  I want to
> see a clear indication that the project is something that a group
> of independent software developers can collaborate on without ASF
> board intervention.
> ....Roy
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