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From Sanjiva Weerawarana <>
Subject Re: AJAX Toolkit Framework Proposal
Date Tue, 20 Dec 2005 23:28:25 GMT
On Tue, 2005-12-20 at 09:03 -0500, Adam Peller wrote:

Hi Adam! Haven't run into you since the early BSF days .. boy that was
like 7 years ago??! Looks like you're doing well and keeping busy ...

I have some questions on the proposal:

> The AJAX Toolkit Framework will provide a strategic framework for
> Interactive Development Environments (IDEs) for the many different AJAX
> toolkit offerings in the market. It provides a rich set of tools for the
> AJAX / DHTML developer including: a JavaScript editor with edit-time syntax
> checking; Mozilla web browser; integrated DOM browser; integrated
> JavaScript debugger; and wizards and development aides tuned to specific
> libraries and toolkits.  The Framework is extensible to support other AJAX
> toolkits and has a wizard-based tool to facilitate the integration of new
> toolkits in the framework.
> The AJAX Toolkit Framework has dependencies on  Mozilla XULRunner and
> JavaConnect, and Eclipse WTP. AJAX Toolkit Framework is written as a set of
> Plugin extensions to Eclipse. It embeds 4 other open source components:
> Rhino, JSLint, Rico and Zimbra.  No code modifications will be made to the
> 4 open source components specified. They are incorporated to accommodate
> Eclipse plugin architecture and distributed as-is by repackaging them as
> part of the AJAX Toolkit Framework.

So this may not be an appropriate part of the discussion for deciding
whether to accept this for incubation or not but I'm concerned about
complexity. A key reason for the evolution of AJAX is that the "old way"
was too damned complicated. This proposal appears to be offering a
framework to layer over frameworks! Is that correct? If so why do you
believe that anyone other than the Zimbra toolkit (which is part of this
proposal) will in fact come and port their framework to this world. 

Also, is the proposed framework intended as a client side platform? That
is, is it basically an alternative to using a browser on the client side
as a host for AJAX applications? Or is it just some kind of tooling

If its an alternate client platform, can you expand a bit on plans to
build stuff with it? (Again you can reply with "Not your damned business
as it has nothing to do with the incubation process" but I'm just
looking for more info.) 

> The Zimbra AJAX Development Toolkit, the first toolkit integrated into the
> framework, provides a rich client library, similar in style to traditional
> object-oriented widget libraries like Eclipse's SWT.  This toolkit hides
> implementation details and browser quirks and makes web development more
> accessible to the enterprise developer.  It provides
>  * User interface development
>  * Network communications (both synchronous and asynchronous)
>  * SOAP programming
>  * XML document creation and manipulation
>  * UI event handling and management

I've looked at the Zimbra SOAP stuff (very) briefly and its pretty
primitive. Do you expect to continue to develop that into a fully
fledged SOAP infrastructure (supporting addressing, security, RM and all
that WS -* stuff) or depend on someone else?

The reason I'm asking is obvious .. I'd like you to use Axis2/C and
Axis2/Java for that part :). If the first part is about an alternate
client platform then I imagine you'd want to use Axis2/Java and plug it
into Rhino (obviously you can as-is but a more native binding would of
course be nicer). We already have the start of a Rhino provider BTW
(courtesy of Sylvain during ApacheCon!).

We've already started on a PHP binding for Axis2/C and would like to see
folks bind it to as much other stuff out there as possible. That way you
get a full function SOAP stack on the browser .. so instead of just
getting a bit of SOAP (which BTW doesn't make much sense; then one might
as well do pure XML/HTTP(S) and be happy and lighter) you get the whole


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