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From "Geir Magnusson Jr." <>
Subject Re: Harmony: project purpose
Date Sat, 07 May 2005 03:02:43 GMT

On May 6, 2005, at 10:54 PM, Simon Kitching wrote:

> Unfortunately, legally isn't it impossible for a GPL'd project and an
> ASF'd project to *have* "synergies"?

Only if you narrowly define "synergy" to mean combining differently- 
licensed code.

> If GNU (who presumably have a copyright on all the Classpath code) are
> willing to relicense under the APL, then that would work. Same for  
> Kaffe
> (though probably more difficult unless Kaffe require copyright
> assignment as part of contributions as GNU do). But the proposal
> document doesn't state either.

Right - we want to leave it to whoever shows up to talk about  
whatever they want to do.

> Without that, only general "design
> principles" can be shared between Harmony and these projects, which
> really isn't of much use in the Classpath case as the classes must
> adhere to the Sun TCK which must be pretty detailed on library class
> behaviour.

Except that it's my understanding that the GNU "family" of projects  
(Kaffe, GNU Classpath, GCJ, etc) all want to use GNU Classpath, and  
are working out how to make it pluggable and modular.  We need the  
same thing (would be great to have a VM that we could plug a  
different classlibrary into to get J2ME, for example), so why not  
work together?  Then when we get past the license problem, we can  

> Sharing design discussions with Kaffe developers may be
> somewhat more productive, but even so 90% of the work is in the code -
> which cannot be transferred to an APL-licensed project.

I'm not so sure.  There has been *tremendous* amounts of work out  
there thinking about modular platforms, to help get different  
performance profiles, for example.

> This proposal seems *so* much work to reimplement stuff already done
> under the GPL (unless that code can be relicensed as described above).
> I'm curious to know what the benefit of all that work is..

We'll, come help and find out :)


> Regards,
> Simon
> On Fri, 2005-05-06 at 22:34 -0400, Davanum Srinivas wrote:
>> Simon,
>> People working on Kaffe/Classpath are gonna advise us..see their  
>> names
>> on the proposal :)  We (Apache Gump team) has been working with them
>> to make Kaffe/Classpath better for a while now
>> ( Harmony is going
>> to increase synergies. We are working in parallel with FSF folks on
>> the licensing issues as well for while now. Please see the FAQ as
>> well. we are gonna leverage every bit of code and expertise that we
>> can to make this happen.
>> -- dims
>> On 5/6/05, Simon Kitching <> wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>> Can someone clarify for me why Harmony is being proposed when GNU
>>> Classpath, Kaffe and other projects are quite a long way to  
>>> satisfying
>>> the goal of a Free Java environment?
>>> Is it:
>>> * That SUN is not expected to ever grant a free license to run  
>>> the TCK
>>> for a GPL-licensed project, so the only way to get a "certified"  
>>> free
>>> Java implementation is to ignore the existing GPL'd stuff and start
>>> again from scratch?
>>> * That you feel that more contributors will be involved in an
>>> Apache-licensed project than in a GPL-licensed project, resulting  
>>> in a
>>> better overall end result? If so, why?
>>> * That you feel that the availability of an Apache-licensed  
>>> project is
>>> important enough to duplicate all the existing GPL'd effort? If  
>>> so, why?
>>> Who in particular wants an Apache-licensed implementation and can't
>>> accept a GPL'd one?
>>> * That Kaffe/Classpath are somehow flawed and that it is  
>>> necessary to
>>> start again?
>>> * That because Apache is a well-respected player in the Java  
>>> community
>>> that a project hosted at Apache will be so much better accepted  
>>> that it
>>> is worth discarding all the Kaffe/Classpath work done so far?
>>> Regards,
>>> Simon
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