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From "Geir Magnusson Jr." <>
Subject Re: a beehive release and the JSR 181 TCK issue
Date Sun, 29 May 2005 13:40:13 GMT

On May 29, 2005, at 8:21 AM, Eddie ONeil wrote:

> All--
>   There has been some confusion publicly and privately about the JSR
> 181 TCK issues and the WSM part of Beehive.
>   The goals of WSM are to implement the JSR 181 specification and to
> provide a generic annotation processor for the 181 annotations.  In
> addition, there is a layer that implements JSR 181 features for the
> Axis web service stack.
>   The JSR 181 specification is being developed under the JCP 2.6
> process and has reached the "Final Approval Ballot" stage.  But, this
> is not the *final* release of the specification.  This means that the
> spec is not completely finished and that the RI and TCK are not
> available.
>   Both Craig and Geir have confirmed that in order to ship a "final"
> version of Beehive that claims to implement JSR 181, we must pass the
> JSR 181 TCK.  Currently, we are blocked on even starting this work
> because the TCK has not been released.  I've exchanged some mail with
> Geir, and once the TCK is available, he will help us obtain it through
> Apache channels and we can start the process of passing the TCK.  The
> TCK work will be done at Apache under NDA.
>   The implication here is that Beehive (NetUI + Controls + WSM) can
> not go "final" as a whole until the TCK has been released and WSM has
> passed.

Well, where there's a will...

what are you implementing now?  A pre-final spec that's public?

Right now, we have the awful situation in the JCP that any pre-final  
spec isn't licensed for implementation.  However, Oracle, JBoss and  
Hibernate are shipping
example implementations of the EJB3 public draft (which I think is a  
good thing in terms of getting implementations out for people to play  

However, that's not really permitted, and quite frankly,  
theoretically dangerous because any IP contributed to the spec by the  
expert group experts has not been licensed for use in the spec - that  
only happens when the spec is final, and the spec lead is granted  
right to license the IP for compatible implementations.

So the question here is "what do we do?"

We can

a) just do it and violate the license (I'm not for that)

b) wait until the TCK is complete (that works, but holds you up)

c) try to find some permission.

I'm happy to work on (c) for you, but I don't think it's mechanically  
possible under the terms of the governing procedure of the JCP - we'd  
have to approach each expert on the EG for 181 and get them to grant  
us permission, if we wanted to be accurate and complete.

>   The purpose of this milestone was to provide incremental progress
> toward a 1.0-final release of the stable NetUI and Controls parts of
> Beehive,  Then, we'd do a subsequent Beehive release that has JSR 181
> TCK compliance.
>   So, it seems to me that the passing the TCK and doing a milestone
> release are orthogonal until we consider doing a release that doesn't
> include WSM.
>   It would certainly be possible to release a version of Beehive that
> had only the NetUI + Controls bits and let the WSM part continue to
> bake until the TCK becomes available and is passed.  WSM could then be
> included in a later release.  Thoughts about this are welcome;
> honestly, I'd be fine with this approach.

That works completely.  And if you made it so that the WSM part was  
buildable or gettable from a nightly, and then just used w/o any  
claims of completeness or status on your part, then it's probably not  
an issue - it's clear how OSS is developed, and that's just a natural  
part of the process.

>   But, I do think that we should complete the current milestone
> release in order to get something new out there.


If you are calling this a milestone increment rather than a real  
"we're complete and support this" release, then by all means, throw  
in the JSR-181 stuff.  We do this in Apache Geronimom all the time,  
and it's clear that our milestone releases are not J2EE 1.4 compliant.


Geir Magnusson Jr                                  +1-203-665-6437

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