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From Greg Stein <>
Subject Re: [VOTE] Graduate Derby from the incubator
Date Mon, 04 Apr 2005 00:50:17 GMT
On Sun, Apr 03, 2005 at 11:51:10AM -0400, Brian McCallister wrote:
> On Apr 3, 2005, at 11:02 AM, Rodent of Unusual Size wrote:
> >At least one person from the DB PMC has voted in favour of graduation,
> >which I hope means that the project understands the issues of
> >assuming oversight and feels comfortable doing so.  Having more
> >people from the DB PMC/project weigh in on the vote would be
> >nice. :-)

While that is great, it is really the Incubator's job to assess whether
the project is Right And Proper for the ASF. Community issues *are* one of
the items they review -- it's been on the checklist since day one. I think
it would be imprudent to make exceptions because a target PMC "says it is
fine with them."

I *can* see both sides of the issue. I do recognize that a PMC is
ultimately responsible for the community issues. But that has always been
for existing projects. We already know there is an issue here, so why not
deal with it now?

> Derby depends on nothing else at Apache (except ant for its build), and 
> is depended on by nothing else at Apache. This is *good* from a 
> technical point of view, but is a weakness from a community health 
> point of view.

This worries me even more. How is the DB PMC going to expand the community
if it appears nobody else is "nearby" ?

And why is graduation needed to fix the community? Why not now? Why not
within the Incubator?

Finally, I usually worry about PMC's oversight of sub-projects. If there
is more than one developer list under a PMC, then you explicitly have
partitioned communities. How is an existing PMC's community going to help
grow another community if they are separated like that? To some extent, a
PMC should be providing oversight to a *single* community. We've already
seen problems with PMCs trying to review too many distinct communities. It
just doesn't work. I realize that the DB PMC isn't an "umbrella" in the
same sense as XML or Jakarta, but that is merely because it has fewer
projects. It still has separate communities, and derby-dev will just be
another one.


Greg Stein,

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