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From Stefano Mazzocchi <>
Subject Re: [PROPOSAL] PMC Vote to incubate Directory Project
Date Mon, 22 Sep 2003 11:07:12 GMT

On Monday, Sep 22, 2003, at 09:04 Europe/Rome, Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:

>>> The Chair of that PMC is the sponsor.

>> Really? I thought I was the sponsor.
> Really? Didn's see you there much :-P

Which might also show how many private emails you might have missed?

Incubation is more a social operation than a beaurocratic one. It's not 
only about the proper CVS usage and the legal oversight, it's making 
sure that human friction is resolved before it shows up.

Public visibility of that process is very small, but extremely 

>>> What happened with the latest Xopus incident it was the Incubator 
>>> Shepherd, not the Cocoon PMC that started cleaning stuff and 
>>> addressing the issues.
>> Sorry, can't parse the above.
>>> So don't talk to me about virtual stuff, when the recent history 
>>> shows that the Cocoon PMC, of which you are an important part, has 
>>> been as virtual as ever, despite being given all the liberty 
>>> possible in incubating Lenya.
>> please, Nicola, your defensiveness is useless here since I'm 
>> confronting with the 'concept' of the incubation PMC not with the 
>> people that compose it.
> Well, I'm talking about facts instead, not mere "concepts". Facts show 
> us that PMCs left on their own do not overlook an incubation process 
> correctly.

This is disturbing, expecially since there is no incubation process 
documented and "correctness" is just a subjective measure.

>> In the lenya case, oversight doesn't mean "error free operation". The 
>> lenya people failed to comply to the advertising clause of one of 
>> their included software. As you yourself wrote, it was merely a 
>> defect in the build script that didn't copy the appropriate file in 
>> the distribution. I wouldn't call this "virtual operation".
> Lack of involvment on the lenya mailing lists. I call that "virtual 
> operation".

I met the wyona people in person several times and had private 
communications with them. Does that account as virtual as well since it 
didn't happen on a mail list?

>> As the answers to that thread showed, oversight from Cocoon PMC 
>> members is continuous and prompt... but this doesn't mean that we 
>> have to do the work for them... This wouldn't scale.
> I don't parse this.

Let me rephrase: instead of feeding them, I want them to learn how to 
grow their own food.

my *personal* vision of incubation is more oriented toward social 
engineering that infrastructure or legal oversight.

why? well, because a well-behaving community will well-behave at the 
infrastructure level *and* at the legal level.

I wrote several private emails (some copied to the cocoon pmc, some 
not) to the lenya people when I thought that they were doing something 
potentially wrong... but I did *NOT* fix their license for them.

Oversight and sheparding means parenting, but should also give freedom 
to make mistakes, because, sometimes, making mistakes is the only way 
one can learn something.

This last xopus legal thing showed to them many things that they 
wouldn't have otherwise noted. I was hoping for something like this to 
happen because Michael spent way too much energy and effort in trying 
to convince non-oss-minded people to join, instead of just focusing on 
his own stuff.

but of course, since I didn't write many emails, I'm not following nor 
I'm well behaving as a sponsor.

quantity vs. quality again?

>>> You want to Incubate Lenya? You are free and *encouraged* to do so, 
>>> nobody has prevented you or any other person on earth from doing it.
>> So why in hell do we need an incubator? for those projects that 
>> nobody really cares about? or just to stamp a 'yes go on with that 
>> PMC but play nicely' to all those who come with a proposal?
>> I don't understand: what is this incubator doing anyway if all the 
>> projects are incubated somewhere else?
> 1 - votes the projects into Apache after check that all the 
> nitty-gritty
>     stuff has been taken care of
> 2 - serves as a central place to store incubation history and
>     information
> 3 - serves as a place where to discuss incubation per se, where
>     shepherds, sponsors and project members can confront
> 4 - serves as a place where to incubate TLP
> In essence it's a box, not a club where only the greatest can rule 
> <chuckle>.

hmmm, if the above is true, why are you judging the incubation 
operation of another PMC? on what basis?

>>>> which, IMO, should be redesigned since it clearly creates more 
>>>> beaurocracy than any good]
>>> The problem is that it has *not* created yet any beaurocracy.
>> Oh god, don't you realize that it could be that people don't complain 
>> to you because you can get so defensive so fast?
> I hear enough complaints here, thank you.

Ok, great. I'll shut up then.

>>> People complain about lack of rules, not because there are too many.
>> Really? who did?
> Everyone. For example Berin Lautenbach and Ted Leung, but you can put 
> basically anyone that asked us for something.

Fair enough.

>>> We have only one true rule, that we should vote for a project to be 
>>> accepted fully at Apache, based on a simple checklist.
>>> If this is beaurocracy...
>> Ok, let's change the word so you don't get defensive: did the 
>> presence of the incubator prevent issues or created them?
> It has made issues that without it are simply ignored finally evident. 
> As for other issues, they are usually created by people complaining 
> here and not helping out.

I'm trying to help out indicating what I dislike about the process. If 
this is not appreciated, tell me and I'll shut up.

>> I vote for the second.
> Then add some explanation to your vote please, because I don't see how 
> the Incubator has created issues to Lenya.
> Call me defensive, but I have never seen a project that has been under 
> fire from flamers like this one in all my life.

For me, the disturbing thing is the "we know what to do, you don't" 

Remove that and you'll see the flames disappear in seconds.


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