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From robert burrell donkin <>
Subject Re: [PROPOSAL] PMC Vote to incubate Directory Project
Date Tue, 23 Sep 2003 20:50:06 GMT
On Monday, September 22, 2003, at 07:48 AM, Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
> robert burrell donkin wrote:


>> i (for one) would not feel able to support any vote to push any 
>> sub-project out of jakarta (though i do think that this would be a good 
>> thing for more than one sub-project.) i think that any push needs to 
>> come from a higher level with more moral authority.
> Naaa, a post with "why don't you... the reason is that... you decide" can 
> be sent by anyone.

that's not exactly going to push anyone is it?

as you well know, a single post like that from a nobody is unlikely to 
achieve anything. the move towards top level projects is driven just by 
the ASF membership - there appears to be no appreciable level of demand 
from jakarta developers. they need to be convinced.

what i find unfair is that some well respective ASF members criticize the 
jakarta pmc for failing to be sufficiently persuasive when they are not 
willing to act to help the situation themselves. IMHO positive messages 
from well respected members who have helped communities to move from 
sub-project to project status will have far more impact than anything that 
the jakarta pmc could do (short of threatening closure of the project 
unless it finds a top level project willing to accept it).

>>> There is a "trick" though in making the projects ask for it: make 
>>> committers in Jakarta have all blanket CVS access. This way projects 
>>> that want to keep their "own" community must ask to go top level for it.
>>> Dunno how the thing is going now though, I got tired of waiting for 
>>> some action and left the PMC.
>> if no one else has the spare energy (and the flame proof boots ;) 
>> required to encourage sub-projects to move to tlp status and you aren't 
>> willing to volunteer yourself then no action will be taken.
> Listen dude, I asked the Ant project myself to move, and got flamed for 
> that. I lobbied some James guys to do the same. I brought the discussion 
> forward on the community mailing list. I took part in the Cocoon project 
> going TL.
> If there is someone here that has pushed projects top-level, that's me.

you've persuaded projects of the advantage of going top level. cool. ok, 
you've now decided that you're fed up of persuading people. i can 
understand that. it's a thankless task.

but IMHO this isn't what pushing projects means. pushing projects means 
threatening them with an ultimatum - either find some top level project 
that's willing to accept you or we close your repository and remove your 
commit rights. IMHO it's unfair to expect the jakarta pmc to put this kind 
of pressure on sub-projects. this can only come from the membership 
through the board.

>> i'm sad that you decided to leave rather than take on (at least some of)
>>  this task.
> I'm sad that my last proposal for pushing projects top-level did not find 
> approval. I don't know you, but I would not take on a task that others do 
> not agree with.

it's a pity that you didn't stay around to talk about your proposal or put 
it to the vote. maybe we misunderstood your proposal: if you had said 
"i'll volunteer to help every jakarta sub-project to realize that they 
want their own top level project" then i think the response would have 
been different.

- robert

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