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From Stefano Mazzocchi <>
Subject Re: [PROPOSAL] PMC Vote to incubate Directory Project
Date Fri, 19 Sep 2003 13:07:56 GMT

On Friday, Sep 19, 2003, at 14:05 Europe/Rome, Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:

> Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
> ...
>> the members came to consensus agreeing that project umbrellas are a 
>> pain in the ass and a PMC should be as close as possible to the code 
>> it develops, as to increase the ability to do proper legal oversight. 
>> [note: this notion is in *strong* contrast with this virtual-PMC...
> It is not.
> Lenya is being incubated under the Cocoon PMC.

So we have two flavors of incubation, direct and indirect?

> The Chair of that PMC is the sponsor.

Really? I thought I was the sponsor.

> What happened with the latest Xopus incident it was the Incubator 
> Shepherd, not the Cocoon PMC that started cleaning stuff and 
> addressing the issues.

Sorry, can't parse the above.

> So don't talk to me about virtual stuff, when the recent history shows 
> that the Cocoon PMC, of which you are an important part, has been as 
> virtual as ever, despite being given all the liberty possible in 
> incubating Lenya.

please, Nicola, your defensiveness is useless here since I'm 
confronting with the 'concept' of the incubation PMC not with the 
people that compose it.

In the lenya case, oversight doesn't mean "error free operation". The 
lenya people failed to comply to the advertising clause of one of their 
included software. As you yourself wrote, it was merely a defect in the 
build script that didn't copy the appropriate file in the distribution. 
I wouldn't call this "virtual operation". As the answers to that thread 
showed, oversight from Cocoon PMC members is continuous and prompt... 
but this doesn't mean that we have to do the work for them... This 
wouldn't scale.

> You want to Incubate Lenya? You are free and *encouraged* to do so, 
> nobody has prevented you or any other person on earth from doing it.

So why in hell do we need an incubator? for those projects that nobody 
really cares about? or just to stamp a 'yes go on with that PMC but 
play nicely' to all those who come with a proposal?

I don't understand: what is this incubator doing anyway if all the 
projects are incubated somewhere else?

>> which, IMO, should be redesigned since it clearly creates more 
>> beaurocracy than any good]
> The problem is that it has *not* created yet any beaurocracy.

Oh god, don't you realize that it could be that people don't complain 
to you because you can get so defensive so fast?

> People complain about lack of rules, not because there are too many.

Really? who did?

> We have only one true rule, that we should vote for a project to be 
> accepted fully at Apache, based on a simple checklist.
> If this is beaurocracy...

Ok, let's change the word so you don't get defensive: did the presence 
of the incubator prevent issues or created them?

I vote for the second.

Should we make a poll so that we can see what others think?


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