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From "Andrew C. Oliver" <>
Subject Re: [vote] XMLBeans to enter XML incubation [was: Re: Vote for XMLBeans proposal in the XML Project (was RE: Vote for XMLBeans proposal)]
Date Fri, 11 Jul 2003 17:57:20 GMT
Thanks.  I just want to emphasize something Stefano said... You do loose
some control over the project.. ..  It starts moving in directions you never
intended...  POI is an excellent example.  I founded it as a little
extension to Cocoon.. . Now no one uses the serializer for Cocoon, everyone
uses the API and the few who want to do XML->Excel want to do it w/o Cocoon.
(sorry Stefano ;-) )

Some folks are using it on AS/400s even.  I lost the whole vision of the
project a long time ago.  It now moves in several directions at once and I
have to ask questions.  It used to be I had project plans and an idea of
what would be in each release, this is no longer possible.  We thrive by
being out of control.

There are times where I wish I still owned the project (not many times but
brief moments) so that I could make some arbitrary decisions mostly to make
things neat and organized...  Generally I contradict myself here, because
often others prove me wrong and it turns out their direction is correct.
The project is a collective consciousness.  This means that not only BEA but
you will have to be able to live with community decisions going in
directions you don't predict, can't imagine and sometimes don't completely
like (compromise is often necessary for consensus).  Just be sure you're
ready for that.  

You eventually learn to rely on the community consciousness but it takes
time to develop the patience and confidence...

>From a concrete standpoint:

The ASF will own XMLBeans as a trademark
The ASF will own the source

So for instance if you wanted to stamp "WebLogic: The XMLBeans-enabled
Server" IANAL but you'd probably have to get permission.


On 7/11/03 12:30 AM, "Cliff Schmidt" <> wrote:

> Stefano,
> Thanks for the very thoughtful response!  I agree with everything
> you said.  The responses from you, Andy, and everyone else on the
> general lists have only made us (the XMLBeans committers) more
> enthusiastic about what we are doing.  If you all didn't care so
> much about making sure the right thing is done, we wouldn't be so
> excited to join you.
> Cliff
> On Thursday, July 10, 2003 6:52 PM, Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
>> proposal)]
>> on 7/8/03 12:56 PM Ted Leung wrote:
>>> +1
>>> I am planning to meet Cliff Schimdt in person at OSCon later this
>>> week. I will also be happy to be the official shepherd during
>>> incubation. 
>> I fully trust both Steven's and Ted's "mentoring" abilities.
>> I'm happy that people like Andy keep the 'corporate paranoia' alarm
>> on, we have been harmed by this too much in the past, but I, like
>> Greg, sense the intention of doing good and work hard to pay off the
>> benefit of being part of the foundation.
>> But given my past experiences, I foresee one potential problem that I
>> would like to show, so that both the XMLBeans committers and the
>> mentors can start tuning their alarms for it.
>> First a few reminding statements:
>>  1) incubation is about judging the quality of community development
>> in the diverse open and meritocratic spirit of the ASF. It is *NOT*
>> about judging technical merits. We let Darwin take care of that
>> because no mentor, no ASF member should judge a technology being
>> proposed, since this might stop technological evolution.
>>  2) incubation is about protecting the foundation name from being
>> abused. it should *NOT* be tollerated that the companies behind the
>> incubated project use the apache name for marketing promotion without
>> indicating the incubation status of the project.
>> Now, I see one potential big risk: idea ownership.
>> Meritocracy is developed if there is openness to alternative thinking,
>> otherwise, it becomes oligarcy and it doesn't evolve. darwinistically
>> speaking, it simply dies out of lack of genetical mutation and
>> adaptability to the environment is too low.
>> I suggest the mentors to tune their community-dynamics sensors to
>> this. 
>> To the XMLBeans developers, expecially to the main architects, my
>> suggestion is different: allow diversity of opinion, allow people to
>> experiment, allow paths that you don't like to be tried out. You will
>> find out that the real value of open development is exactly this:
>> learning new things and understanding that, no matter how smart you
>> are, there is always somebody smarter than you. If you allow him/her
>> in, they will be part of your team, if not, they will be outside,
>> probably harming your community by removing energy from it.
>> being attached to your design ideas is more harmful that it seems and
>> not only because the foundation might cancel incubation and stop
>> development because of it, but also because it prevents you from
>> learning and growing, as developers and, more important, human beings.
>> Having said this, you get my +1
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Andrew C. Oliver
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