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From Steven Noels <>
Subject Re: Proposal for Lenya
Date Sat, 22 Feb 2003 09:07:35 GMT
Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:

[extensive snipage]

> Steven Noels wrote:

> You know how I run communities and what are the things I value. Michael, 
> who is the technical leader, resonates with my vision a lot and has been 
> playing very nicely with Cocoon.

Please, I don't see why you need to defend Michael's community & 
technical skills here. I never had any doubts on that, nor did I wanted 
them to arise: if somebody opens up a project and successfully invites 
'foreign' committers, he's pretty cool in my book, regardless of the 
project domain or codebase.

Relinquishing code ownership and slowing down project progress in order 
to let the community in into the project aren't easy things to do, and 
it looks like Michael handled these pretty well.

> Well, I can't be sure either. This is why we are going thru incubation: 
> it should be a period to estimate *IF* this codebase with these people 
> is the right seed for a potential healthy community.
> If now, well, at least we tried.

Yeah. Since Incubation in itself is pretty new and finding its way to 
operate, we might be living under the (wrong) assumption that incubation 
succeeds at all times. I'm the pessimist kind of guy who worries about 
incubation failures and how a project can survive these. That is what I 
was referring to with 'being good for Lenya'. What if they fail to 
attract new blood? What if they remain an isolated community? But you 
are right, we should stop worrying about this and see how Darwin helps 
us here.

>> Of course, I should shut up and get involved (I'll do that). Still, 
>> the idea behind Incubation Proposals is that people can react upon 
>> them. I'm only voicing my concerns, and I would love to be proven wrong.
> I appreciate you voicing your concerns because they allow me to express 
> my feelings about this.

Yep. Suggestion to Incubator: add a rationale from the sponsoring 
Members to a project proposal. You are sometimes referring to a context 
unbeknown to the list, so it might be good if these things are included 
in the proposal.

>> Gee - I knew that one was coming ;-)
> You can't stop an effort with FUD overhere, expecially an incubation 
> one. It's not fair!

I hope some of my points are not considered FUD but genuine concerns. I 
didn't happen to extensively comment on the other proposals going 
through incubation lately, since they weren't in the domain I'm working 
in, or have a particular interest in, nor would they eventually lead to 
sub-project creation inside a project of which I'm part of the PMC.

I remember, when I was in school, some teachers demanded more of me 
because they liked me and felt like I was able to answer the extra demand.

> And if then fails, we might learn stuff that might help future efforts 
> not to fail.

I hope, and will try to commit myself, to make sure this experiment will 
not fail at the cost of the Lenya project itself ([1] for a 
light-hearted comment on related matters). I'm therefore volunteering to 
be one of the sponsors.

> If you start entering stuff like workflowed revisioning of content, 
> multi-user annotation, repository abstraction and stuff like that, if 
> clearly understand that it's not just a matter of assembling existing 
> stuff, but it's *MUCH* more complex than this.

Add multi-linguality to that mix, messaging, repository synchronization, 
and a generic attribution system, and it rapidly becomes much more than 
what can be handled in a Cocoon sitemap. ;-)

> Moreover, nobody in the forrest community is interested in making 
> forrest a full content management system.

That's a bold and incorrect statement. Why am I here, commenting on 
Lenya? :-)

> So, in my vision, forrest starts from making static web sites and grows 
> up, Lenya start with making supercomplex multi-user environments and 
> goes down.
> Will they meet in the middle? I don't know, but I can't see why not.

I believe there might be some tricks people can learn from Forrest, even 
if we Forrest committers might not always be happy with all there is to 
Forrest. It might be in the interest of both communities to seriously 
look into each other, since they have both extensive Cocoon linkage, and 
should both try to showcase a set of Cocoon best practices.

This being said, here is my sincere and empathatic +1 for Lenya joining 
Incubator with the ambition to become a Cocoon sub-project. I've 
subscribed to wyona-dev and will see where I can help.


Steven Noels                  
Outerthought - Open Source, Java & XML Competence Support Center
Read my weblog at  
stevenn at                stevenn at

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