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From Alex Thompson <pierogi...@hotmail.com>
Subject RE: Lucene project announcement
Date Thu, 18 Nov 2010 18:19:54 GMT
Karell,
What would be the problem with Lucene.Net in Azure?

-----Original Message-----
From: Karell Ste-Marie [mailto:stemarie@brain-bank.com] 
Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 6:01 AM
To: lucene-net-dev@lucene.apache.org
Cc: dev@lucene.apache.org
Subject: RE: Lucene project announcement

I'm forced politely disagree with some of these thoughts, let me explain why:

I order for this technique to be successful it seems that there is as much work being poured
into the porting technique as there is with the port itself. To my point of view it does seem
like this is double the work for benefits that are perhaps not as good as they could be (I
am not saying in any way that Lucene.NET today is not good, it is quite good and is the results
of great efforts from a lot of very dedicated people) since it follows a java-style design
which is great of the java world, but perhaps not always optimal for the C# world. The project
should be doing one thing, either:
A) make a great Java to C# porting tool
B) make a great search engine in C#

As an example, it would be a hair-pulling experience to take Lucene.NET as it is today and
use it on Microsoft Azure, an environment that is specifically designed for .NET applications.

As I said before, besides using Lucene.NET itself I haven't contributed much and only in discussions
- I haven't committed any code. However I will say this: I personally don't know nor care
about the Java language just as I'm sure many of you don't care about Prolog. In order to
help out, I feel that I need to be able to read and understand the Lucene version in order
to make the same stuff happen in the Lucene.NET version. This means I have to be both a Java
and C# developer at the same time?

Mathematicians have been using math to explain algorithms for years, it is a universal language
that is (to different levels) understood by all.

How those functional algorithms are implemented in a imperative language makes no difference,
so long as they are implemented and produce the intended result.

I think that in the end, there should be at least 3 projects for Lucene:
1. The Lucene algorithms, in a platform-neutral language - let the search engine gurus implement
how this should be done without having to worry about imperative programming and the hacks
to get there - either a compiler or a manual model would be used to implement these algorithms
2. Lucene - Architecture of the project(s) - perhaps a lot of UML here in a format where it
can be fed to quickly produce skeleton files 3.x. Lucene - language-specific versions

As Grant points out it is up to the community to make a decision, then let's all get together
and see if collectively a decision can be made.

And for the record, I personally think that when an open source project has 3+ ports to the
same language - there is a problem. What that problem is however, I won't venture in taking
any guesses.

I make these comments for the good of the project(s) and it is in no way my intention to offend
anyone and I salute all work and effort done thus far, we would not be here were it not for
everyone involved.


Karell Ste-Marie
C.I.O. - BrainBank Inc

-----Original Message-----
From: Alex Thompson [mailto:pierogitus@hotmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 3:58 AM
To: lucene-net-dev@lucene.apache.org
Subject: RE: Lucene project announcement

I don't think Lucene.Net staying a line-by-line port is craziness. We're not saying that Lucene.Net
is the one true implementation and there can be no others. I see Lucene.Net as part of a spectrum
of solutions.

On one end of the spectrum is IKVM. If you want all the java lucene features immediately and
the constraints of IKVM work for your scenario then great, off you go.
Then there is Lucene.Net. This is good if IKVM doesn't work for you, you want short lag time
behind java lucene (yes this needs improvement but we're working on it), and ability to read
java lucene books/examples and apply that relatively seamlessly to your .NET code.
Then on the other end of the spectrum is the forks (wrapper/extension/refactor etc.) that
try to make things ideal for the .NET world.

I think it's clear there is interest and support for both Lucene.Net and the forks. They should
both exist and be complimentary, not competitive. The forks provide greater flexibility and
greater exposure so more users and contributors can get involved. Lucene.Net provides the
benefits listed above and provides an avenue for features to trickle down from java lucene
to the forks.

So bottom line there is no one-size-fits-all implementation. Lucene.Net (as a line-by-line)
provides good value to a significant user base and (assuming we can optimize the porting)
takes relatively little effort, so it is a useful part of the spectrum.

Alex

-----Original Message-----
From: Andrew Busby [mailto:andrew.busby@aimstrategic.com]
Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2010 5:06 PM
To: lucene-net-dev@lucene.apache.org
Subject: RE: Lucene project announcement

Dear All,

I have not yet spoken up on this issue yet but I felt that I could not sit in silence any
more.

I completely understand the stand point of the current development team and agree with the
goals that they are setting out to achieve.

Keep this index format compatible with the java version:  (check great work)

Ensure that an search on a .net version will return the exact same results as the java version:
(check great work)

But,

This is where the sense seems to end.   The "it must be a direct port of java stance" is completely
craziness.  

I am not taking about the use of java conventions, I do not care if a have to get a value
using something with a prefix of "get", I am talking about not making the best use of the
tool at hand in this case .NET

There also a clear indication that community  (maybe just the vocal ones) is saying we want
to help be feel we can't or are not inclined to.  

Open Source software is about enjoyment and a project that basically says if you want to help
just translate this code file from java to c#.  

Was this not a punishment at school? Translate this passage from Latin to English during your
break time!  

This whole discussion started because the lucence.net project made an announcement that we
need help, it is not working.  It now appears that we are going to continue to carry on using
the same model, isn't the definition of insanity "continuing to do the same thing and expect
a different result". 

If you are going to be getting an automated tool to do the work great, is a community even
need? I doubt there will be much for anyone to get involved with, except fixing api conflicts
between nunit and junit which can probably be scripted anyway.

I have seen several people rush out and create their own forks with big promises (I know one
of them is even being backed by codeproject.com) would it not be better to try to channel
all of the energy of these people on to a branch, homed within apache which is the best place
for it and see what they come up with?  

It is a no lose situation, the current trunk will continue as is but something great may appear
that everyone is happy with and end this unrest.  

Before everyone shouts that people should be putting their efforts into the current truck
version, it is just not going to happen.  You cannot jump up and down and say that we are
in charge, you must commit our way (it says so on the web page) or your energy is not welcome.

 I reality, watching the current events unfold, I cannot see much changing. Maybe one or two
new committers but most people will just wait for the new automated tool to get setup, the
java guys to fix the bugs and the tool to keep the versions up today or the current committers
get really "pissed off" at continuingly coming under fire and give up (worse outcome possible).

Having said all of that, I just want to say thank you to all of the lucence.net committer
that have got us to this point. Just should be proud of what you have achieved and that actually
do have a community that wants to see the project continue.

Anyway just how I see things.

Thanks,

Andrew



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