incubator-general mailing list archives

Site index · List index
Message view « Date » · « Thread »
Top « Date » · « Thread »
From Matt Sicker <boa...@gmail.com>
Subject Re: Problems with Committer Invite Documentation
Date Wed, 05 Aug 2020 00:05:32 GMT
The private list is important to watch anyways as a project that can't
provide oversight to said mailing list is typically in danger of
dying. Adding moderators for the list would certainly help.

On Tue, 4 Aug 2020 at 17:56, Dave Fisher <wave@apache.org> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Aug 4, 2020, at 2:52 PM, leerho <leerho@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > John,
> > Thank you for your comments.
> >
> > First understand that this site (community.a.o) is maintained by comdev.
> >> Podlings should be following the processes at http://incubator.apache.org/
> >
> >
> > I searched incubator.a.o and could not find any comparable documentation
> > that is step-by-step with example template emails.  There are several pages
> > devoted to educating new committers, but I could not find much on inviting
> > new committers.  So in the absence of good documentation I used what I
> > could find.   Also, I have never read anywhere that podlings should not be
> > reading or following the ASF documentation.  Presumably, the ASF
> > documentation preempts incubator documentation in most cases.
> >
> > No.  Why do you think it will disappear into the "bit-bucket"?  The
> >> candidate would have the email in their inbox and would be able to archive
> >> it/save it for reference however they choose fit.
> >
> >
> > Because it has been over 24 hours since our candidate replied and it still
> > does not show up in our private@ mail list. If our mentors have the
> > responsibility to moderate the private list, why is it that none of our 5
> > mentors have not forwarded it?  Whether it is technically a bit-bucket or
> > not is irrelevant.  If our mentors don't moderate the list and forward an
> > important email such as a committer invite, it is effectively a
> > bit-bucket!   So our candidate is sitting waiting for the next steps and is
> > hearing nothing!  That is unacceptable.
>
> Not all mentors are moderators. I am not.
>
> These three are moderators.
> chenliang613@apache.org <https://whimsy.apache.org/roster/ppmc/committer/chenliang613>,
kamaci@apache.org <https://whimsy.apache.org/roster/ppmc/committer/kamaci>, kenn@apache.org
<https://whimsy.apache.org/roster/ppmc/committer/kenn>
>
> The information is here: https://whimsy.apache.org/roster/ppmc/datasketches
>
> >
> > WRT:  Being a committer enables you to more easily make changes without
> > needing to go through the patch submission process. --- (A ill-advised
> > implication)
> >
> > That's a fair point, but not all projects follow this pattern.  In
> >> addition, the template is free to be modified by each project, you're under
> >> no obligation to follow the published format verbatim; so if your project
> >> chooses to invite someone and wants to reword the text you can.
> >>
> >
> > I recognize that these templates can be changed by the user.  But you are
> > missing my point.  Why start with a recommendation that is ill-advised to
> > start with?  Many folks simply copy these templates making as few changes
> > as possible without reading the content and thinking about the
> > implications.  And I have proof of this happening with senior ASF folks.
> >
> > I am a bit puzzled why you are pushing back so hard on my recommendations.
> > I am a great fan of the ASF and I just want to improve the documentation
> > and make it better!
> >
> > Regards,
> > Lee.
> >
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 1:54 PM Dave Fisher <wave@apache.org> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>
> >>> On Aug 4, 2020, at 1:31 PM, John D. Ament <johndament@apache.org>
wrote:
> >>>
> >>> On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 4:19 PM leerho <leerho@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Folks,
> >>>>
> >>>> It is our first time going through the recommended New Committer process
> >>>> and we have uncovered some significant problems with the documentation
> >>>> <https://community.apache.org/newcommitter.html#new-committer-process>.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>> First understand that this site (community.a.o) is maintained by comdev.
> >>> Podlings should be following the processes at
> >> http://incubator.apache.org/
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>  - The most serious problem is step A: of the "Committer Invite
> >> Template"
> >>>>  on the above page:
> >>>>
> >>>> A. This personal invitation is a chance for you to
> >>>>> accept or decline in private.  Either way, please
> >>>>> let us know in reply to the [private@project.apache.org]
> >>>>> address only.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> This is a potential disaster, since the candidate will not have
read or
> >>>> write privileges to the private mail list, the candidate's reply will
> >>>> simply disappear into the bit-bucket! I would recommend changing this
> >>>> paragraph to:
> >>>>
> >>>> A. Please reply directly to me if you wish to accept (or not accept)
> >> this
> >>>>> invitation.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>> No.  Why do you think it will disappear into the "bit-bucket"?  The
> >>> candidate would have the email in their inbox and would be able to
> >> archive
> >>> it/save it for reference however they choose fit.  private mailing lists
> >>> may have moderation in place, but since it's a legitimate email the
> >>> moderators of the list should moderate it through if it does get
> >>> moderated.  The acceptance should also be on the podling's private list
> >> to
> >>> allow the ASF to have a permanent record of the acceptance.
> >>
> >> I have moderated numerous such requests in the past. Usually within 24
> >> hours, but occasionally within 104 hours.
> >>
> >> I have a Smart Mail filter to make sure that I see all moderation emails
> >> even though the vast majority are spam.
> >>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Presumably the person sending this message will be someone from the
PMC
> >> /
> >>>> PPMC that the candidate already has had some contact with. Also,
> >> hopefully,
> >>>> the sender has enough good sense to not CC non-private mail lists or
> >> other
> >>>> people on the invite, which will make the exchange as private as
> >> possible.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>> Yes, the person sending the invite needs to be on the PMC/PPMC.
> >> Typically
> >>> this is done by whoever actually did the nomination but there is no
> >> formal
> >>> rule about who must or must not send it (in some TLPs I think they expect
> >>> the chair to do it, podlings don't have chairs).
> >>
> >> Typically a response is required in 30 days and the PPMC and Mentors will
> >> need to track the result.
> >>
> >> Sometimes a nominee has to ask their company if they can sign an ICLA and
> >> not every one can.
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >> Dave
> >>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>  - The next problem is the wording of the first sentence of the
> >>>>  2nd paragraph:
> >>>>
> >>>> Being a committer enables you to more easily make
> >>>>> changes without needing to go through the patch
> >>>>> submission process.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>> This is basically recommending bad programming practice! We encourage
> >> all
> >>>> our committers to use the PR and review process on all but the most
> >> trivial
> >>>> commits (e.g., documentation typos).  I would recommend simplifying
this
> >>>> sentence to:
> >>>>
> >>>> Being a committer grants you write access to the project repositories.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>> That's a fair point, but not all projects follow this pattern.  In
> >>> addition, the template is free to be modified by each project, you're
> >> under
> >>> no obligation to follow the published format verbatim; so if your project
> >>> chooses to invite someone and wants to reword the text you can.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>  - This next issue is somewhat a matter of style, but I would recommend
> >>>>  replacing the entire section "B" with:
> >>>>
> >>>> B. If you accept, you will receive a follow-up message with the next
> >> steps
> >>>>> for establishing you as a committer.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> The above changes will make the invite letter simpler and more
> >>>> straightforward.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>> Once you've invited the person to be a committer, they should be able to
> >>> submit the ICLA on their own.  Someone on the PMC/PPMC shouldn't need to
> >>> tell them how to do it, but the instructions included in B are pretty
> >> clear
> >>> and help that committer figure out how to submit the forms as needed.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> I would be happy to submit these changes as a PR but someone will have
> >> to
> >>>> tell me where to do this.
> >>>>
> >>>> Cheers,
> >>>>
> >>>> Lee.
> >>>>
> >>
> >>
> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> >> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
> >>
> >>
>


-- 
Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com>

---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org


Mime
View raw message