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From "John D. Ament" <johndam...@apache.org>
Subject Re: [DISCUSS] Drop requirement that ASF members can join IPMC by just asking
Date Wed, 21 Aug 2019 20:27:14 GMT
Hi all,

Its been over a week since this thread was last active.  I know its created
some confusion within the IPMC now about the membership rules.  Unless we
can conclude this thread with a vote to change the process, I think we have
to assume the old process remains in place.

John

On Tue, Aug 13, 2019 at 2:57 PM Julian Feinauer <
j.feinauer@pragmaticminds.de> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I fully agree with Julian here. But we should beware not to start a witch
> hunt about 'bad mentors' but develop an environment where one can step back
> as mentor if priorities change or for other reasons are no longer able to
> mentor. Everybody is a volunteer here so we should thank everybody for
> their effort and not be 'mad' if they 'do not enough'.
>
> But on the other hand this should encourage mentors who can for whatever
> reason not support their podlings enough to speak freely or look for others
> to fill in their spots.
>
> JulianF
>
>
> -------- Ursprüngliche Nachricht --------
> Betreff: Re: [DISCUSS] Drop requirement that ASF members can join IPMC by
> just asking
> Von: Julian Hyde
> An: general@incubator.apache.org
> Cc:
>
> I agree with a lot of Dave Fisher's points.
>
> Some mentors will fail. Let's not waste effort trying to 'vet' them
> beforehand; it's time-consuming and counter-productive. Let's instead
> make it easier to detect when mentors fail (I think the "Have your
> mentors been helpful?" question on podling reports helps with that,
> but we need to do more), and let's try to increase the supply of
> potential good mentors. That way, we'll end up with good mentors, and
> we'll bring active new members into the Foundation.
>
> Julian
>
> On Tue, Aug 13, 2019 at 10:40 AM Hao Chen <hao@apache.org> wrote:
> >
> > I founded some apache project and graduated to TLP, and also keep
> > contributing to some other apache projects but almost in code, wonder to
> > know how to volunteer as IPMC to help some incubator projects graduate in
> > Apache way.
> >
> > Hao Chen
> >
> > On Tue, Aug 13, 2019 at 7:43 AM Dave Fisher <wave4dave@comcast.net>
> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > Sent from my iPhone
> > >
> > > > On Aug 13, 2019, at 2:39 AM, Justin Mclean <justin@classsoftware.com
> >
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > HI,
> > > >
> > > > I think there's a couple of misconceptions in this thread. First off
> > > currently you can join the IPMC two ways by being an ASF member and
> asking
> > > to join, the other by being voted in. On average the people being
> voted in
> > > tend to not go missing, review releases and sign off board reports more
> > > frequently.
> > > >
> > > > This has come up on list the list before and some (ex)board members
> have
> > > suggested that the IPMC shouldn’t;t allow people to be added this way.
> > > >
> > > > The suggestion here isn’t to be exclusionary, in fact we now allow
> > > people who have experience in incubator to ask if they can join, as it
> > > often hard for the IPMC to recognise merit, but they still need to be
> voted
> > > in. [1] When a project graduates I go though the PMC list and see if
> there
> > > are any likely IPMC candidates and contact them to see if they are
> > > interested, you’ll notice that more people have been voted in in recent
> > > times. In another thread I’ve gone one step further and suggested that
> > > mentors look out for people on their projects list who are release
> managers
> > > and vote on releases and suggest they be voted in as IPMC members. [2]
> > > (Option D). I agree the bar should be low.
> > > >
> > > > I do find it strange that we would allow people from a privileged
> group
> > > to auto join, when they possibly may not have shown merit and/or have
> not
> > > being involved in the incubator or an incubating project before.
> Obviously
> > > this doesn’t apply to all ASF members that ask join the incubator, but
> I
> > > can point to examples where this has given rise to serious issues.
> We’ve
> > > even had the occasional mentor who has never sent an email to their
> > > podlings list, never voted on a release and never signed off a board
> report.
> > >
> > > This is a different problem. I’ve seen nonmember mentors who were
> voted in
> > > who never really do anything. Let’s face it life intrudes in one way or
> > > another. One hopes that such mentors will resign, but they usually fade
> > > away.
> > >
> > > Let’s focus on service to podlings and try to replace mentors who for
> > > whatever reason cannot help.
> > >
> > > Following through with your proposal creates an IPMC that is not fully
> > > trusting the Membership. The membership of The ASF is the Foundation.
> These
> > > people have attained merit.
> > >
> > > >
> > > > I don’t mind if their's not consensus on this and letting this stay.
> > > There may be better ways to make sure mentors who sign up do their job
> and
> > > make mentors are more engaged. Please post your suggestions to this
> list
> > > for discussion.
> > >
> > > I reject the use of the verb “make” for this problem. We should “help”
> > > mentors and podling communities “be” more engaged. We should “help”
> > > podlings and mentors when Incubation is not working.
> > >
> > > Mentoring is voluntary. So is Membership.
> > >
> > > We need to have strong Champions who know how to bring willing and able
> > > podlings and mentors into the Incubator.
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > > Dave
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Thanks,
> > > > Justin
> > > >
> > > > 1.
> > >
> https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/9ee3860bc9066ba682484542d34976ab21d9b62106f26a96f19d997f@%3Cgeneral.incubator.apache.org%3E
> > > > 2.
> > >
> https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/8c6e12bb040856dddb5d9b7b4821739e441455f3c61c6e469eb98f81@%3Cgeneral.incubator.apache.org%3E
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> > >
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> > >
>
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