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From Kenneth Knowles <>
Subject Re: [MENTORS] Mentor guidance document
Date Wed, 21 Aug 2019 22:48:30 GMT
+1 I like this document.

I expect the way one reaches a point where they don't need the proposed
document is by doing a lot of mentoring. So you can't wait until they've
already done a lot of mentoring before you start them mentoring :-). It is
true that the starter examples are the ones that many people have
encountered and dealt with.

Personally, I think I'm at the point where I "get" many of the problem
statements. I can explain the reasoning well for some, less well for
others. I still often need help with approaches to improving things. So,
personally, I'll benefit from it.

 Specific feedback: I don't think the "Values" lists are needed. I would
prefer these incorporated into the prose in the "Reasoning" section.


On Wed, Aug 21, 2019 at 12:08 AM Julian Hyde <> wrote:

> +1 This guidance document is worth pursuing. There is plenty of criticism
> of mentors on this list, it helps to have some guidelines. Thanks Justin.
> > On Aug 20, 2019, at 9:41 PM, Justin Mclean <>
> wrote:
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > Sone thoughts inline.
> >
> >> Documentation does not solve the problem.
> >
> > I agree it doesn’t solve the whole problem. But it may give time poor
> mentors more time to do other things if they can easily reference
> collective knowledge on these issues.
> >
> >> If someone doesn't already "get" this stuff then they should not be
> mentoring.
> >
> > We have had on occasion people who are mentoring who may not get this
> stuff but were passionate supports of their projects, should we exclude
> them? Some of this is down to inexperience, and mentoring is one of the
> good ways to  improve this knowledge and become a better mentor. Even if
> you have gone though incubation and mentored a project before you may of
> not come across the same situation and it’s not always obvious how to apply
> the values, especially in case where there’s conflict between those values
> (or ASF policies).
> >
> >> Having a document does not replace for selecting good mentors who have
> the time to do the job right.
> >
> > 1-2 years (or more in some cases) a long commitment and life sometime
> changes things, replacement mentors can’t in all cases be found, so even if
> the initial condition is true, it may not be a year into teh project.
> >
> > I had thought of making up a mentor capability / score card to help
> podlings elect mentors if they don’t already have one. But haven't
> suggested it previously as it would probably be unpopular and could be used
> unproductively.
> >
> >> It's a good effort in the broader context, but doesn't solve the
> problem I see in the IPMC (insufficient high quality mentoring coupled with
> too much application of rules in the process).
> >
> > Is that because you think don’t we have enough high quality mentors? Or
> the ones we do have are spread a little too thin? Or that we have these
> people but they are not mentoring projects?
> >
> >> How would I solve the problem? If I were championing another project
> into the ASF I would carefully select mentors, just as I have in the past.
> >
> > Being here along time and your previous / current positions would make
> it easy for to be able to get the best mentors we have that are a good fit
> for the project. I’m not sure that all new incubating projects are able to
> do that.
> >
> >> I don't mean to say the effort you are putting in is wasted effort.
> Clarity in what is expected can help the podlings,
> >
> > Do any other mentors want to contribute to this or think it’s an idea
> worth perusing? If not I’ll drop it and focus on something else.
> >
> >> I don't see how this can really help those people I would already trust
> to be good mentors i.e. People who have a vested interest in the success of
> the project and already know how to apply the Apache Way to new communities
> so that they might flourish in their own way.
> >
> > I not sure we actually have enough mentors with those abilities and
> knowledge for all of the 50 odd podlings we have or a pool of idle mentors
> than new projects can select from.
> >
> > Thanks,.
> > Justin
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