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From Davor Bonaci <da...@apache.org>
Subject Re: Podlings, the Incubator, relationships and Apache
Date Mon, 24 Jun 2019 04:54:45 GMT
I wouldn't say that there are 2 camps. The IPMC seems to be overwhelmingly
in the "2nd camp", with its desire to be lenient with the releases and
rules.

What I see is:
[1] David is saying (correctly) how Incubator is structured right now. He
hasn't expressed ~any opinions; it is just an interpretation of the facts
from past resolutions and decisions made. I don't think anything said there
is questionable as the current state of affairs.
[2] Most of IPMC agrees that the current state of affairs is [1], and
desires to relax it somewhat.
[3] Hence, Justin is asking for clarification regarding IPMC's authority to
depart from the current state of affairs described in [1].

The IPMC is capable of making the business decision; Justin is not asking
for the decision to be made, but instead to better understand the IPMC's
authority of possible decisions.

On Sun, Jun 23, 2019 at 8:53 PM Dave Fisher <dave2wave@comcast.net> wrote:

> Thanks Roman!
>
> +1 to the 2nd camp!
>
> Regards,
> Dave
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Jun 23, 2019, at 8:25 PM, Roman Shaposhnik <roman@shaposhnik.org>
> wrote:
> >
> >> On Sat, Jun 22, 2019 at 3:31 PM Rich Bowen <rbowen@rcbowen.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> A couple of thoughts:
> >
> > And a couple of thoughts on top of that.
> >
> >> Podlings are not permitted to call themselves "Apache Foo" because they
> are
> >> not yet full Apache projects.
> >
> > Correct. The I way I see this thread is this: *when it comes to
> > releases*, there's
> > always been two camps in Incubator. One thinks that Incubator is a TLP
> just
> > like Apache Commons that happens to produce release artifacts that have
> > nothing in common (just like Apache Commons'  JXPath has very little to
> do
> > with Compress and). A second camp thinks that Incubator is actually a
> special
> > construct within a foundation (after all, if it was just like Apache
> Commons why
> > would we make them put DISCLAIMER into release tarballs?).
> >
> > It seems that David is closer to the 1st camp, and Rich and I are
> > closer to the 2nd.
> >
> > Looking at the community benefits, I really think we should acknowledge
> that
> > Incubator is a special construct and optimize that special construct
> > for a particular
> > outcome: which is effectiveness of the graduation process.
> >
> >> While in the incubator we should expect podlibgs to fail at the rules.
> >> They're new to them and many of them feel arbitrary, even capricious, to
> >> those coming in from outside. We should make it safe to fail until they
> are
> >> ready to graduate. We should nurture them as long as they are moving
> >> towards that goal.
> >
> > Yup.
> >
> >> I cannot disagree with your reading of our resolutions. But I wonder if
> >> that reality is producing good citizen projects or a bunch of resentful
> >> people following rules they don't understand or embrace because they
> know
> >> they have to.
> >>
> >> Zipkin is only the latest project which clearly didn't get it and has
> left
> >> angry. I would rather a project realize that they don't fit and be able
> to
> >> leave with their dignity without having also to leave hating what we
> stand
> >> for.
> >>
> >> I want our new graduates to love and understand the ASF not merely
> tolerate
> >> it.
> >>
> >> I want the incubator to respond to failure with gentle correction rather
> >> than scoldings.
> >>
> >> Specifically I think podlings should be able to produce releases that
> are
> >> not asf complient and have them clearly labeled as such. Because they
> are
> >> not TLPs yet and so cannot be held to the same standard. This must be
> >> accompanied by a movement towards being a TLP, not some eternal
> incubation.
> >
> > With my IPMC member hat on -- huge +1 to the above.
> >
> > With my VP Legal hat on: I have no dog in this race. The IPMC needs to
> make
> > a *business* (well, community in this case) decision and then we can work
> > with a risk profile of that decision.
> >
> > Like I said -- the decision to make is: 1st vs. 2nd camp.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Roman.
> >
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> >
>
>
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