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From Geertjan Wielenga <geert...@apache.org>
Subject Re: Incubation Pain Points
Date Mon, 17 Jun 2019 15:50:56 GMT
It’s not really totally OK. People leaving back to their old place feeling
unhappy and frustrated, how is that totally OK? How positive is that
departing community going to be about Apache? Is that really totally OK? I
think it’s a sign that there was something wrong in the pre-incubation
discussions, certainly some misconceptions. Sure, it’s not the end of the
world to go back to the old place, but certainly not the ideal either.

Gj


On Mon, 17 Jun 2019 at 17:36, Roman Shaposhnik <roman@shaposhnik.org> wrote:

> On Mon, Jun 17, 2019 at 1:24 AM Christofer Dutz
> <christofer.dutz@c-ware.de> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Geertjan,
> >
> > not quite sure how to read this ... what are you referring to as "new
> culture".
> > The existing project coming to the ASF? And this project should adopt
> the tradition of the ASF.
> > Or that the ASF should adopt the culture and tradition of the project
> joining?
> > (Probably then meant more as: Allowing them to continue than the ASF to
> change)
> >
> > I think projects coming to the ASF have to be educated prior to entering
> incubation that
> > there will almost always be things we are expecting them to change when
> they come to Apache
> > and that there's no discussion on if they have to follow them.
>
> This! Also, I think we should stop being so uptight about communities
> trying incubation
> and deciding that ASF is not for them. It is a two-ways street when it
> comes to education.
>
> > We have to make them understand that the ASF is more than a GIT repo, CI
> Server and Mailing lists.
> > That the ASF has great things to provide (Legal Shield, Marketing,
> Infra, ...) but that this only works
> > If you play along with some rules we have. Also should we explain WHY
> these rules are there.
> >
> > I would say it's sort of like emigrating to another country: You
> probably move for some reasons.
> > But also probably the rules are a little different at the country you
> are moving. There will be things
> > You will be allowed to do the same way you always did it, but there will
> be things expected of you
> > to simply follow and not ignore, because you think otherwise.
>
> And sometimes you'd return back to your old place after all -- and
> that's totally OK.
>
> Thanks,
> Roman.
>
> > We have to find a way to state the rules and what we expect before
> podlings enter incubation.
> >
> > Still we will have podlings that sort of remind me of small children
> simply not willing to do something simple,
> > Just cause a parent told them to: "No, I will not say thank you".
> >
> > Or converted to our world: "No, I will not add anything to any Notice",
> or "No, I will not credit stuff I
> > obviously borrowed somewhere" ... but this way we can always refer to
> the rules being clearly
> > communicated prior to entering incubation and not have to listen to
> complaints all the time.
> >
> > And for my point of view: If there are projects, that join the ASF, but
> don't want to play according to the
> > Rules - we're off way better without them. At least I don't want to
> invest my time (which is already
> > Spread out pretty thin with all the things I do for the ASF) to deal
> with rebellious podlings.
> >
> > Chris
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Perhaps creating a training session as part of the training podling
> >
> > Am 13.06.19, 22:29 schrieb "Geertjan Wielenga" <geertjan@apache.org>:
> >
> >     Speaking on behalf of myself only, though note I am PMC chair of
> NetBeans,
> >     which went through a protracted (nice way of saying ‘complex’)
> incubation
> >     because of its size (‘very large’) and history (20+ years) — the key
> to any
> >     new culture is to adopt its traditions and to fight them as little as
> >     possible. And one can’t really understand the culture until one is
> in it.
> >     It’s hard to really prepare — other than to admire projects like
> Maven or
> >     TomEE and to want and aim to be like them, regardless of the
> contortions
> >     required to get there.
> >
> >     Gj
> >
> >
> >     On Thu, 13 Jun 2019 at 21:10, Dave Fisher <dave2wave@comcast.net>
> wrote:
> >
> >     > Hi -
> >     >
> >     > Here are some thoughts I have to improving Incubation. These are
> not
> >     > really new, but I think we should discuss where and how best to
> apply these.
> >     >
> >     > (1) Champions need to very clear that the ASF expects Community
> decisions
> >     > not BDFLs. Burnout is one factor to highlight why community is
> important.
> >     > Vendor independence is important and part of why BDFLs don’t fly.
> In the
> >     > last few years we have deemphasized the role of Champion and I
> think we
> >     > need to list out some of the duties a Champion has to both the
> prospective
> >     > podling community and the Incubator.
> >     >
> >     > (2) We should help existing communities plan their entry into
> Incubation
> >     > with their proposals. Currently TVM is moving their community over
> before
> >     > repositories. That might be a better approach for many communities
> as it
> >     > will assure that (a) the existing community keeps its current
> velocity and
> >     > (b) they are making community decisions on list before actual
> development
> >     > is moved over.
> >     >
> >     > (3) Having a lower impedance to release and code changes would
> really
> >     > help. We are already having this discussion. A very radical idea
> might be
> >     > to move a lot of the License, Notice and Dependency work away from
> the
> >     > Release Vote and instead do periodic and potentially automated
> audits of
> >     > repositories. This would follow the REVIEW suggestion, but make it
> more
> >     > automated and based on tooling.
> >     >
> >     > (4) Relinquishing control of admin rights on GitHub repos is an
> impedance.
> >     > I understand why this is done from an Apache Infrastructure
> perspective,
> >     > but it is a surprise to podling communities. Making sure that a
> new podling
> >     > knows fully what to expect before transferring repos would really
> help
> >     > manage expectations.
> >     >
> >     > (5) Failure to incubate is not failure. Currently 63 podlings have
> retired
> >     > and there are two or three additional retirements soon. 4 or 5
> podlings
> >     > moved on or back to where they were. The why of retirement could be
> >     > analyzed, but it would need to look into mailing list archives
> because the
> >     > information in podlings.xml is not always clear and is sometimes
> more
> >     > diplomatic than the reality.
> >     >
> >     > See https://projects.apache.org for an intriguing chart.
> >     >
> >     > Regards,
> >     > Dave
> >     >
> >     >
> >     >
> >     >
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> >     >
> >
> >
>
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