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From Dave Fisher <dave2w...@comcast.net>
Subject Re: [DISCUSS] Graduate Apache Dubbo (incubating) as a Top Level Project
Date Wed, 24 Apr 2019 16:19:10 GMT
Hi -

(With trademark committee hat)

Trademark resources can all be found from here: 
Trademark resources sitemap: http://www.apache.org/foundation/marks/resources
PMC responsibility: http://www.apache.org/foundation/marks/responsibility
Improper third party uses: http://www.apache.org/foundation/marks/responsibility#police
Formal policy: http://www.apache.org/foundation/marks/

I don’t think that there is a formal policy to handle the situation where a transitional,
"3rd party” site controlled by the PMC exists that will be phased out. Generally trademarks
is looking for that PMC to be working with and engaging 3rd parties to fix any branding issues.

I think it is important to know what the goal is for the "3rd party" site is and when that
will be achieved.

(Dubbo mentor hat)

I think that rather than quickly responding by fixing various issues in an ad hoc manner it
would be good to present the long term plan and then agree on the needed language on the “3rd
party site”

For example, the treatment of “product” that will be donated into the project codebase
differs from “product” that won’t be. The “for Apache Dubbo” makes no sense for
product that will be moved into Dubbo.

The next board meeting is May 15th and there is time to carefully address the plan to the
satisfaction of the IPMC.

Regards,
Dave

> On Apr 24, 2019, at 8:51 AM, Sheng Wu <wu.sheng.841108@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Hi
> 
>> Could somebody point me to Apache documentation that indicates that
> such use of names of Apache projects is not ok? I might need that
> information soon-ish myself, thanks.
> 
> I used to read this from incubator discussions. Zipkin and SkyWalking were
> facing that question. Could someone help about this?
> 
> Sheng Wu 吴晟
> 
> Apache SkyWalking, ShardingSphere, Zipkin
> Twitter, wusheng1108
> 
> 
> Jan Piotrowski <piotrowski@gmail.com> 于2019年4月24日周三 下午11:29写道:
> 
>> Semi OT:
>> Could somebody point me to Apache documentation that indicates that
>> such use of names of Apache projects is not ok? I might need that
>> information soon-ish myself, thanks.
>> 
>> -J
>> 
>> Am Mi., 24. Apr. 2019 um 17:07 Uhr schrieb Sheng Wu <
>> wu.sheng.841108@gmail.com>:
>>> 
>>> Hi,
>>> 
>>> 4. We plan to rename all projects in this organization to
>>>> xxx-for-apache-dubbo
>>> 
>>> The rename makes sense for ecosystem projects, especially for these
>> three.
>>> I also used to see the traditional rename to xxx-for-apache-project
>>> 1. js, https://github.com/dubbo/dubbo2.js
>>> 2. python, https://github.com/dubbo/dubbo-client-py
>>> 3. php, https://github.com/dubbo/dubbo-php-framework
>>> 
>>> Also, please pay attention to this[1]. This is a release repo(npm), the
>>> description in Chinese, I assume it related to [2]. Right?
>>> If yes, this release dist should be renamed. SkyWalking used to be asked
>>> stop in the same case.
>>> Because it misguides user this is Apache release, which isn't.
>>> 
>>> [1] https://www.npmjs.com/package/dubbo2.js
>>> [2] https://github.com/dubbo/dubbo2.js
>>> 
>>> Sheng Wu 吴晟
>>> 
>>> Apache SkyWalking, ShardingSphere, Zipkin
>>> Twitter, wusheng1108
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Sheng Wu <wu.sheng.841108@gmail.com> 于2019年4月24日周三 下午10:46写道:
>>> 
>>>> Hi
>>>> 
>>>>> 1. We will remove the organization avatar
>>>>> 2. We are ready to rename organization name from 'dubbo' to other
>> name
>>>>> 3. Because of action 2, we will also lose the domain name
>>>> dubbo.github.io,
>>>>> but it also makes things easier, since we don't need to keep website
>> in
>>>>> this group
>>>>> 4. We plan to rename all projects in this organization to
>>>>> xxx-for-apache-dubbo
>>>> 
>>>> Please discuss with your community, then make the decision. I just
>> reply
>>>> the Huxing's. Transfer the repos in the org(except the dubbo.github.io
>> ,
>>>> if the community wants), is also a good idea.
>>>> 
>>>> I think both you and Huxing have been clear about my concern. I trust
>> the
>>>> Dubbo community could make it right.
>>>> 
>>>> Thanks.
>>>> 
>>>> Sheng Wu 吴晟
>>>> 
>>>> Apache SkyWalking, ShardingSphere, Zipkin
>>>> Twitter, wusheng1108
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Ian Luo <ian.luo@gmail.com> 于2019年4月24日周三 下午10:16写道:
>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Those two are good options. Please read my prev reply[1], which
>>>>> concerns me
>>>>>> more are
>>>>>> 1. Website codebase.
>>>>>> 2. GitHub org name and logo.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Sheng, If your concerns here are confirmed to be disallowed, we will
>> do
>>>>> the
>>>>> following things against dubbo group:
>>>>> 1. We will remove the organization avatar
>>>>> 2. We are ready to rename organization name from 'dubbo' to other name
>>>>> 3. Because of action 2, we will also lose the domain name
>> dubbo.github.io
>>>>> ,
>>>>> but it also makes things easier, since we don't need to keep website
>> in
>>>>> this group
>>>>> 4. We plan to rename all projects in this organization to
>>>>> xxx-for-apache-dubbo
>>>>> 
>>>>> Let me know if your concerns will be completely addressed once the
>> actions
>>>>> above are made. Before it, I'd like to confirm with our mentors and
>>>>> hopefully get back to you soon.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>> -Ian.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Wed, Apr 24, 2019 at 7:56 PM Huxing Zhang <huxing@apache.org>
>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Wed, Apr 24, 2019 at 11:01 AM Sheng Wu <
>> wu.sheng.841108@gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Hi.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> As Justin mentioned above, the translation is under going.
We
>> cannot
>>>>>> do it
>>>>>>> for all because we need to examine the license and make sure
ICLA
>> for
>>>>>> each
>>>>>>> projects are signed,
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I am not asking to move all repo related to Dubbo, which is
>> decided by
>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> project owner or Dubbo community.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> eventually we hope to move everything into Apache group except
>> for
>>>>> the
>>>>>>> repo [1] which serves redirection dubbo.io to dubbo.apache.org.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> As you mentioned, which make me concern more. Especially you
say
>>>>>>> `eventually` and `hope`. Are these optional?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> No. The redirection has been completed.
>>>>>> You can test with: curl -i http://dubbo.io
>>>>>> The only effective file is index.html, possibly CNAME.
>>>>>> Other files are archive for the old website before joining ASF.
>>>>>> To make it better understandable, I think it is better to move them
>> to
>>>>>> other place (e.g. a new branch) for archive purpose.
>>>>>> I update the description and readme, removing the word "eventually".
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Please read your own Incubator Proposal[1], section Initial
>> Source,
>>>>> "Home
>>>>>>> Page: https://github.com/dubbo/dubbo.github.io"
>>>>>>> If the transfer has not been finished, you should wait for that
>> before
>>>>>>> graduation.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> IMO, the transfer has been finished. Requests to dubbo.io has been
>>>>>> redirected to dubbo.apache.org.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Why not just set the `redirect` on the DNS level, and host all
in
>>>>>>> http://dubbo.apache.org. If the two are the same. If not, which
>> is
>>>>>> harder
>>>>>>> to understand for me.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Because the ownership of dubbo.io did not belong to either Apache
>> or
>>>>>> Alibaba when Dubbo joined ASF.
>>>>>> The Dubbo community do not have access to change the DNS record.
>>>>>> The easiest way is to redirect dubbo.io to dubbo.apache.org.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> This is a block for me.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Now I have changed the title and the profile for dubbo group
>> like
>>>>> this:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> You changed some. But if you look clearly about the logo(GitHub
>> org
>>>>>>> avatar), also the name, you will see they[2][3] are the same,
>> which
>>>>> both
>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> them belong to ASF.
>>>>>>> Which makes me think the branding has not been cleared.
>> Especially, I
>>>>>> think
>>>>>>> Dubbo team has the full access to that GitHub org, so this should
>> be
>>>>> able
>>>>>>> to be fixed.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I have no objection to rename the organization if this is an issue.
>>>>>> I see some TLP keep an empty group. I think it is useful just for
>>>>>> defensive purpose, in case someone abuse it.
>>>>>> Another way is to create another group with something other than
>>>>>> dubbo, can transfer all the projects under it.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Dubbo is now incubated in ASF:
>>>>>> https://github.com/apache/incubator-dubbo,
>>>>>>> this group is for hosting dubbo eco-system temporarily before
the
>>>>>>> transition finishes.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> The temporarily needs to be defined, as you are going to be a
>> TLP, the
>>>>>>> PPMC(potentail PMC) have to make the decision, what do you want
>> about
>>>>>> your
>>>>>>> own repo.
>>>>>>> Notice, I am not saying all repo in GitHub, but the specific
ones
>> in
>>>>> the
>>>>>>> initial org, https://github.com/dubbo
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> [1] https://wiki.apache.org/incubator/DubboProposal
>>>>>>> [2] http://dubbo.apache.org/en-us/
>>>>>>> [3] https://github.com/dubbo
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Sheng Wu 吴晟
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Apache SkyWalking, ShardingSphere, Zipkin
>>>>>>> Twitter, wusheng1108
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Ian Luo <ian.luo@gmail.com> 于2019年4月24日周三 上午10:29写道:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Glad to see the actions are ongoing, and many projects
are
>> done.
>>>>>> Could
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> Dubbo community consider to make sure the Dubbo GitHub[1]
org
>> to
>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>> processed well? Such as,
>>>>>>>>> 1. Stop using the Dubbo logo.
>>>>>>>>> 2. Statement clear, this org will be renamed or some
other
>>>>>> way(community
>>>>>>>>> prefers) to avoid the branding concern.
>>>>>>>>> I think the clear status of Dubbo ecosystem is very important.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> As Justin mentioned above, the translation is under going.
We
>> cannot
>>>>>> do it
>>>>>>>> for all because we need to examine the license and make sure
>> ICLA
>>>>> for
>>>>>> each
>>>>>>>> projects are signed, but, eventually we hope to move everything
>> into
>>>>>> Apache
>>>>>>>> group except for the repo [1] which serves redirection dubbo.io
>> to
>>>>>>>> dubbo.apache.org.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Now I have changed the title and the profile for dubbo group
>> like
>>>>> this:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Title: Apache Dubbo Ecosystem
>>>>>>>> Profile: Dubbo is now incubated in ASF:
>>>>>>>> https://github.com/apache/incubator-dubbo, this group is
for
>>>>> hosting
>>>>>> dubbo
>>>>>>>> eco-system temporaryly before the transition finishes.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> I hope this can answer your concerns.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>> -Ian.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 1. https://github.com/dubbo/dubbo.github.io
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On Wed, Apr 24, 2019 at 8:13 AM Sheng Wu <
>> wu.sheng.841108@gmail.com
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Part of the repo was used to host dubbo.io which
now
>> redirects
>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> http://dubbo.apache.org/en-us/. Re the other projects
it may
>> be
>>>>>> that a
>>>>>>>>> little clean up still needs to be done but action is
being
>> taken.
>>>>> The
>>>>>>>>> existence of this extra repo has been discussed a number
of
>> times
>>>>> in
>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> project and projects are being moved off it.  e.g. [1][2]
and
>> more
>>>>>>>> recently
>>>>>>>>> [3][4].
>>>>>>>>>> This document probably best describes what is happening
[5].
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Glad to see the actions are ongoing, and many projects
are
>> done.
>>>>>> Could
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> Dubbo community consider to make sure the Dubbo GitHub[1]
org
>> to
>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>> processed well? Such as,
>>>>>>>>> 1. Stop using the Dubbo logo.
>>>>>>>>> 2. Statement clear, this org will be renamed or some
other
>>>>>> way(community
>>>>>>>>> prefers) to avoid the branding concern.
>>>>>>>>> I think the clear status of Dubbo ecosystem is very important.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Dubbo has a very wide community and connected many
>>>>>> projects/developers,
>>>>>>>> so
>>>>>>>>> please consider to make sure the branding is clear before
>>>>> graduation.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> This issue is is being addressed (vote has been canceled,
>> the
>>>>>>>> dependancy
>>>>>>>>> removed, documentation updated and there’s a discussion
>> started on
>>>>>> legal
>>>>>>>>> discuss on if it might in future be allowed). I also
note it
>> was
>>>>> the
>>>>>> PPMC
>>>>>>>>> who first noticed this issue not the IPMC.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> This is not a blocker, this comes from the same reason
I asked
>>>>> about
>>>>>>>>> branding.
>>>>>>>>> Dubbo is too widely used as they said in many media(s),
many
>>>>>>>>> watcher(s)/star(s) in GitHub.
>>>>>>>>> I am hoping it will be a good example of ASF project,
and the
>> PMC
>>>>> is
>>>>>>>> ready
>>>>>>>>> to find the license issue in first place.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Thanks.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> [1] https://github.com/dubbo
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Sheng Wu 吴晟
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Apache SkyWalking, ShardingSphere, Zipkin
>>>>>>>>> Twitter, wusheng1108
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Justin Mclean <justin@classsoftware.com> 于2019年4月24日周三
>> 上午7:19写道:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 1. If graduation happens, Dubbo should be Apache
branding,
>>>>> then
>>>>>> why
>>>>>>>>>>> dubbo GitHub org[1] is still used. Especially
the exact
>> name
>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> logo.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Part of the repo was used to host dubbo.io which
now
>> redirects
>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>> http://dubbo.apache.org/en-us/. Re the other projects
it
>> may be
>>>>>> that a
>>>>>>>>>> little clean up still needs to be done but action
is being
>>>>> taken.
>>>>>> The
>>>>>>>>>> existence of this extra repo has been discussed a
number of
>>>>> times
>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> project and projects are being moved off it.  e.g.
[1][2]
>> and
>>>>> more
>>>>>>>>> recently
>>>>>>>>>> [3][4].
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> This document probably best describes what is happening
[5].
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 2. Most star project[2] in dubbo org is using
Apache mail
>>>>>> list[3].
>>>>>>>> But
>>>>>>>>>>> groupId[4] says it belongs Alibaba
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> I would guess this is just an oversight, but if someone
>> from the
>>>>>> PPMC
>>>>>>>> can
>>>>>>>>>> comment on this that would be good.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 3. Dubbo-go[5] project exists, and also use the
Dubbo
>> name.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> See [5].
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Also, in the last Dubbo vote `[VOTE]: Release
Apache Dubbo
>>>>>>>>>>> Admin(Incubating) 0.2.0 [RC3]`. License issue
hasn't been
>>>>>> addressed
>>>>>>>>>> inside
>>>>>>>>>>> the PPMC(dev vote), I know LGPL is uncertain
thing(maybe),
>>>>> but at
>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>>>>> moment, it should not be included.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> This issue is is being addressed (vote has been canceled,
>> the
>>>>>>>> dependancy
>>>>>>>>>> removed, documentation updated and there’s a discussion
>> started
>>>>> on
>>>>>>>> legal
>>>>>>>>>> discuss on if it might in future be allowed). I also
note
>> it was
>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> PPMC
>>>>>>>>>> who first noticed this issue not the IPMC.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>>>> Justin
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 1.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>> https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/aae8787244959aeaab0e3e83dd79036482df9e8006f0fb83e5173d87@%3Cdev.dubbo.apache.org%3E
>>>>>>>>>> 2.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>> https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/f272b30bd9bb09dc605088504f8ed643bd9a3b2434c9e7ef59b6b7fe@%3Cdev.dubbo.apache.org%3E
>>>>>>>>>> 3.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>> https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/1987617abc1d4989476beda9dfc9a79eb0e4750050317803b113288c@%3Cdev.dubbo.apache.org%3E
>>>>>>>>>> 4.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>> https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/ec7995d2c42bafcb8f2778b1d0c6ee94bcbbc2dae11d23c41cad82d6@%3Cdev.dubbo.apache.org%3E
>>>>>>>>>> 5.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>> https://github.com/apache/incubator-dubbo/wiki/Apache-Dubbo-external-ecosystem-status
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
>>>>> general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>>>>>>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail:
>>>>> general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Best Regards!
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Huxing
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>> 
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