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From Adrian Cole <adrian.f.c...@gmail.com>
Subject Re: [DISCUSS] Responsibilities and Improvements (was: Re: Whimsy general@ subs check
Date Wed, 06 Mar 2019 22:40:53 GMT
Drive by opinion here, since one of the topics is about expiring "merit"

On one hand, you want to encourage participation and people being one
of NNN where NNN are inactive is demotivating
On one hand, you want to immortalize merit, but is an incubator wiki
pile-on indicative of merit?
On one hand, you want to have fairness, like expiring access after
inactivity, but will people get super mad and hate you for a decade if
they are removed?

It is a loaded topic, almost doomed to fail. Personally, I think
"merit doesn't expire" is weak. There are people who willingly damage
projects and plenty of other reasons to consider decisions that seemed
good at first to not be good long term. Which leads into the bike shed
nature of this topic. Many can take a side as it is easy
participation.. we all have stories with contradicting conclusions.

For that reason alone, I think projects themselves should be able to
decide their culture inclusive of their expiry policy for access. I
don't think this topic will result in any convergence of a one road
out.. and I also feel that way with  "merit doesn't expire". That by
itself is suspiciously attributed to the ASF and I would bet any
amount of money not close to a majority agree with that in private
even if they would out loud.

Can we sideline this or move it somewhere else in other words?
-A

On Thu, Mar 7, 2019 at 5:07 AM Dmitriy Pavlov <dpavlov@apache.org> wrote:
>
> Hi Daniel,
>
> There are two independent questions here.
>
> 1) Removal question and its allowance in general:  this question asked
> during every talk I gave related to ASF. My fellows ask me if someone can
> remove Committer or PMCs. Some folks think it is possible by the vote of
> PMC. They refer to docs I've shared: mnemonic project & incubator guide.
>
> Here I need some general understanding which I can use for
> answering questions.
>
> 2) Inactive members removal: Lack of active PMCs member makes me thinks
> that at some point some removal will be necessary. We can
> continuously grow the roster for a TLP project, but sometimes I feel there
> are ~30 members and only 5-7 active members. So why don't we narrow the
> roster to 7 and invite new members?
>
> It looks reasonable that if you want a binding vote, approve releases,
> propose new committers you need to join community communication channels
> and be there.  My idea is, first of all, ask PMCs if they want to stay or
> leave and, second of all, to always keep committership, because it is based
> on merit.
>
> And here for option 2, I don't have any severe issues to address. If it a
> bad idea, not a problem. In that case, I also would be happy if I
> understand this topic better.
>
> Sincerely,
> Dmitriy Pavlov
>
>
> ср, 6 мар. 2019 г. в 23:12, Daniel Gruno <humbedooh@apache.org>:
>
> > On 3/6/19 9:08 PM, Dmitriy Pavlov wrote:
> > > Hi Ross,
> > >
> > > Thank you for your reply. Apache Ignite PMCs do not support this idea, so
> > > inactive PMCs will be still there.
> > >
> > > But still, it is not clear for me in general, why following
> > > projects/guidelines contains removal procedure for Committer PMC:
> > > - https://mnemonic.apache.org/develop/bylaws/  after 6 months of
> > inactivity
> > > both PMC and Committer status may be removed.
> > > - Default Incubator guidelines
> > > https://wiki.apache.org/incubator/DefaultProjectGuidelines It contains
> > > procedures of consensus-based removal, - it is ok to remove for
> > Incubator?
> > > is it ok for TLP?
> > >
> > > If both PMC & Committer roles are merit-based, and merit does not expire,
> > > how it even possible to remove TLP committer/PMC (excepting some extreme
> > > cases)?
> > >
> > > This question is not only mine, but it is also often asked and I would
> > like
> > > to know the answer.
> >
> > Turn the question around; *why* are you looking to remove people? What
> > is the problem you are trying to solve here? How will removing someone
> > from the PMC/committer list help address the issues you are facing?
> >
> > >
> > > Sincerely,
> > > Dmitriy Pavlov
> >
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> >
> >

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