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From "Mick Semb Wever" <>
Subject Re: Incubator release votes
Date Wed, 27 Feb 2019 09:41:15 GMT
replies inline,

> Apologies if these comments cross other discussions. It's hard to keep 
> track of all the threads that have forked from the original discussion.

I'm struggling to keep up too  :-/

> This is really sad, because in most of these cases the mentors have not 
> voted. And so it fell to the rest of the IPMC members to pay attention 
> enough to take time to vote.
> And recently, three cheers for Justin who has become very active in 
> looking at podling releases and voting. More below.

>From experience, the role that Justin (and others that "interfere") take is invaluable
to the survival of the Incubator. And ultimately, in the longer term, the foundation.

I can also imagine that there are numerous problems and complaints made about the Incubator,
just like there are bug tickets on each TLP.  What I raised was but one, but one that was
in need of an immediate voice. I don't presume that such problems are without their complications
and require 'balancing', and I hope can be read in what I wrote to the board.

> > 1) The Incubator's mission should be as a "facilitator". That is being a service
provider for podlings to enter the Apache community, rather than a stern gatekeeper. The Incubator's
website especially needs an update to better illustrate this spirit and goal.
> Patches welcome. Seriously though, there is very much material and a 
> very small bit that may seem to be contradictory. I'd suggest that when 
> you stumble across a confusing part, document it in an email and have a 
> discussion.

There is a lot!
And it *is* continuously improving.

The organisation of it, and some knowledge about age and relevancy, especially pages under, could be improved. Even with mentoring two podlings I struggle to have
(or link to) the tribal knowledge that others demonstrate. Reading some of Roy's post on the
board thread only makes one feel more lost. The input of the Incubator's elders, people like
Justin, are crucial here.

I also think additional tooling, like those below, makes a really big difference to the motivation
and enjoyment of a podlings journey:

> > 
> > 3) We need to relax IPMC's input on release voting… 
> >  -- Letting the first release be dealt with only by the PPMC and mentors. 
> Putting a release on Apache infrastructure has legal implications. In 
> order to protect individuals from legal issues, Apache requires a 
> release vote by the PMC (in this case, the IPMC) that passes with a 
> minimum of three +1 votes and more +1 votes than -1 votes. 
> So when someone votes -1, that vote does not block the release. So if 
> all three mentors vote +1, it takes three -1 votes before any 
> additional voting is needed.

This has been raised before.
While this is technically true, and using it is itself a demonstration of the ASF rules, I
don't think a cold demonstration of such is so wise against a podling's first release attempt.

Many podlings will be fine, but some (particularly of different cultures/languages) will take
offence before understanding.
This is an example of something that can wait til a latter release.
It should be easy enough to provide a softer feedback on a podling's first release. Remember
these are established communities and the IPMC should, IMHO, first engage with them as strangers
with no trust associated to them. I guess this also comes back to being more service-minded
to the podlings.

> >  -- Understanding a minimal criteria every podling release must meet, and the broader
criteria that TLP releases need to meet. And podlings only need to demonstrate in releases
closer to graduation.
> The reason the podling releases come with a DISCLAIMER (emphasis mine) 
> is that perfection is not expected from podling releases. But it is 
> expected that before graduating, podlings are able to make releases 
> that are fully compliant with Apache guidelines for releases.

I do hope this becomes a new agreement and a new habit in the incubator.

thanks for the reply Craig,

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