From general-return-67144-apmail-incubator-general-archive=incubator.apache.org@incubator.apache.org Mon Jan 14 18:58:48 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apmail-incubator-general-archive@www.apache.org Delivered-To: apmail-incubator-general-archive@www.apache.org Received: from mail.apache.org (hermes.apache.org [140.211.11.3]) by minotaur.apache.org (Postfix) with SMTP id A088418625 for ; Mon, 14 Jan 2019 18:58:48 +0000 (UTC) Received: (qmail 43757 invoked by uid 500); 14 Jan 2019 18:58:47 -0000 Delivered-To: apmail-incubator-general-archive@incubator.apache.org Received: (qmail 43494 invoked by uid 500); 14 Jan 2019 18:58:47 -0000 Mailing-List: contact general-help@incubator.apache.org; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Post: List-Id: Reply-To: general@incubator.apache.org Delivered-To: mailing list general@incubator.apache.org Received: (qmail 43195 invoked by uid 99); 14 Jan 2019 18:58:46 -0000 Received: from pnap-us-west-generic-nat.apache.org (HELO spamd4-us-west.apache.org) (209.188.14.142) by apache.org (qpsmtpd/0.29) with ESMTP; Mon, 14 Jan 2019 18:58:46 +0000 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spamd4-us-west.apache.org (ASF Mail Server at spamd4-us-west.apache.org) with ESMTP id 509B3C24C8 for ; Mon, 14 Jan 2019 18:58:46 +0000 (UTC) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at spamd4-us-west.apache.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0 tagged_above=-999 required=6.31 tests=[HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=disabled Received: from mx1-lw-us.apache.org ([10.40.0.8]) by localhost (spamd4-us-west.apache.org [10.40.0.11]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GqrkHCBmthGJ for ; Mon, 14 Jan 2019 18:58:45 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail-pf1-f175.google.com (mail-pf1-f175.google.com [209.85.210.175]) by mx1-lw-us.apache.org (ASF Mail Server at mx1-lw-us.apache.org) with ESMTPS id 8E2635F4ED for ; Mon, 14 Jan 2019 18:50:28 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-pf1-f175.google.com with SMTP id b7so15911pfi.8 for ; Mon, 14 Jan 2019 10:50:28 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version :subject:date:references:to:in-reply-to:message-id; bh=EdqZAI8CQEMIwG5E9MBvMgNPfnWa9PVhEACH26oWWVc=; b=U17XeKC8lQctZkUF9SEGe9swhyqLQbprFJ1p0uoh875VzD2N2X+NBMfjf20qhDviuh ftzBWHTyTHdIWVF/FsBw/zKVFlF5KQzDPWxqn9yHYJ23ngqMfNEFQUAGd6yOvm40PIiB 6OQJDzwXENt34NXlNhVrFurI50o1HVVeUQB7MYLuxMIDbWkMokYKE+v2Cbf2omZGoUhA VVCk8Q0HeUr3SjotclTI/3haMvLXkh91azPGr1lODwXeUkSf3iiKHMZl0IkgskGDE8ei 4XxCuHC4DuxTgjGNFVicWUkhq+WdYNzc1AxR6CE3phheYVdt61Pd0hAW5Vc6+qxKPkm8 Ywmw== X-Gm-Message-State: AJcUukcW87rKkzdWXdnHxxMnf41cHxzLsSzeN8BAVUGs+oYRHphKWxr6 ttOHx23uNXl9GOT1u/rANg9+0IKj X-Google-Smtp-Source: ALg8bN6BIqnUy5I8UzCp/wbLrqTlEt7Vmzpi6Bp+MgYfgvkO+orx7ltdAem5kgzAPT5cc7DqVXJ+Tw== X-Received: by 2002:a63:8ac4:: with SMTP id y187mr24201574pgd.446.1547491821693; Mon, 14 Jan 2019 10:50:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.11.0.150] ([136.24.124.254]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id b68sm1271154pfg.160.2019.01.14.10.50.20 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 14 Jan 2019 10:50:20 -0800 (PST) From: Julian Hyde Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.2 \(3445.102.3\)) Subject: Re: Incubator exit interview Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2019 10:50:20 -0800 References: <80B409B2-9CAA-4441-9283-6A6350DEC3B4@classsoftware.com> <1544542957881-0.post@n3.nabble.com> <69878FB4-0E32-4176-A515-3677CBBDC205@classsoftware.com> <135DB4D5-866F-4194-BAB7-5DA0A67F53C9@jaguNET.com> To: general@incubator.apache.org In-Reply-To: Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.102.3) What Roman said. And also, I make a distinction between communication (information = gathering) and decision making. The Apache Way is that decisions occur = on-list. It doesn=E2=80=99t say that all communication/information = gathering is on-list. Julian > On Jan 14, 2019, at 10:29 AM, Roman Shaposhnik = wrote: >=20 > On Mon, Jan 14, 2019 at 10:14 AM Kevin A. McGrail = wrote: >> On 1/14/2019 1:01 PM, Julian Hyde wrote: >>> I don=E2=80=99t think the =E2=80=9Cdecisions should be made = on-list=E2=80=9D principle applies to all communication. (Otherwise why = would we allow hallway conversations at conferences?) I=E2=80=99d rather = that we make better decisions than be slave to principle. >>>=20 >> It really does apply to everything. >=20 > As Mark Twain would say: all generalizations are false. Including this = one ;-) >=20 >> Even if you have the best meeting >> in the world, you bring back minutes and decisions made off list for >> ratification. That way there is then an archive of the decision and >> everyone can participate. >=20 > I think if you unpack this statement you will see that there's an = implicit > assumption about "collaborative things". That's 90+% of what ASF does. > And the statement applies there 100% -- no disagreement there. >=20 > But there's also a small portion of things that have to do with = humans, > personalities and personnel. That's where what - Julian mentioned = really > starts making sense. At least in my book. >=20 > Thanks, > Roman. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org