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From Lars Francke <>
Subject Re: Establishing an ASF project for training
Date Mon, 17 Dec 2018 14:03:23 GMT
Thanks for your quick response, your comments and your support.

On Mon, Dec 17, 2018 at 2:37 PM Rich Bowen <> wrote:

> It's worth mentioning that there's a conversation going right now over on
> the members@ list about creating a "central services" kind of entity. That
> discussion is primarily focused on design/graphic kind of stuff, but
> training/documentation/presentations are similar in concept, if not in
> content, and I'm definitely in favor of such an entity existing.

I managed to miss that thread but I'll go over it later today. Thanks for
pointing that out.

> Your anticipated question "Isn't the ASF all about code, now you want to do
> PPT!" is very insightful. The ASF exists to provide services to projects,
> and this is an unfilled need that many/most of our projects have. There is
> precedent - we have an infrastructure organization, a conferences entity, a
> marketing group, legal, brand, and so on, that provide non-code services to
> projects. Recognizing contributors for non-code contributions is *critical*
> for the survival of our projects, and of the Foundation as a whole, and we
> tend to be very poor at it.
> So, suffice it to say, a huge +1 to this concept, although I'm not sure
> where it should live - whether under ComDev (as you suggest) or as a
> top-level entity. I think the latter makes a little more sense. While this
> is indeed a function of community development/growth/education, it's also
> sufficiently different that it may need to be independent.

I agree. It feels more like its own project but if others feel strongly I
don't have a super strong preference either.

> What are next steps? I don't *think* this is something that should go
> through the Incubator. It's not a Thing Like That. Perhaps a proposal to
> the Board to create a top-level thing? I'll put a pointer to this thread
> into that other thread (referenced above), and apologies to those of you
> who are not ASF Members and cannot see that thread.

I have to admit that I don't know either. But I thought that this mailing
list would at least be a good place to discuss this as lots of projects
start here and people have experience with it. And I assume that lots of
members and some board people are reading here as well. I'm not opposed to
start it as a top-level project. I'll defer to people with a longer ASF
history. I'm not sure about the precedent but I know that it sometimes

> On Mon, Dec 17, 2018 at 8:23 AM Lars Francke <>
> wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > I'd like to start a discussion around establishing a project (or Central
> > Service) at the ASF to host and develop training and related materials
> for
> > ASF (and possibly others, where it makes sense) projects.
> >
> > I'm a committer and contributor to a few projects and make money doing
> > consulting work. Naturally people do contact us for training, and we have
> > developed our own slideware etc. but we find it incredibly hard work to
> > keep those up-to-date.
> >
> > We also work with lots of other companies and they all face the same
> > challenges. At the same time, we do not believe that a slide-deck is
> worth
> > that much on its own (others disagree, as we used to). We believe the
> > instructor is the real selling-point and especially when that person is
> > deeply embedded in the projects itself as a committer or PMC.
> >
> > So, we as a company[0] would like to donate our slide decks and other
> > resources we have and establish an ASF wide training project in the hopes
> > that we as a community can collaborate on those resources. We are
> currently
> > talking to partners to assess whether they are interested in joining us
> in
> > open sourcing their material.
> >
> > I'm not sure if this is a "Central Services" kind of thing or if it
> should
> > be an Incubator project to begin with. I'm posting this here because I
> > think there are good arguments for it being a project (e.g. it appears
> as a
> > “project” in all lists that others can contribute to, it follows a
> familiar
> > structure etc.). It might be a bit different than other projects though
> > (e.g. maybe there are no real releases?).
> >
> > This is also not limited to just slides obviously but also accompanying
> > code and potentially other media forms.
> >
> > One concern I have is that the material should be as objective as
> possible,
> > but our clients especially value our (often subjective) input on the
> > matureness of tools (third-party as well as ASF), processes and
> > communities. So, we usually include that in our slides. I guess anyone
> > using this material would need to customize it.
> >
> > This is how I see it but I'm happy to change based on feedback.
> > In scope:
> > * Develop shared material that can be used for trainings
> > * Develop “labs” or “hands-on” exercises
> > * Develop or document an infrastructure that can be used for those labs
> > * Potentially develop tools to manage the material (e.g. ideally a slide
> > repository that contains “modules” that can be easily reused and
> combined)
> >
> > Out of scope (for now at least)
> > * Something like what the CNCF has with their “Kubernetes Training
> > Program”[1] with certified training partners
> > * Project documentation
> >
> > I wasn’t sure whether to start this discussion in members@ and/or here
> or
> > somewhere else entirely. But as we believe it should be a “project” I
> think
> > this is the best place for it. I’m happy to cross-post if you think it
> > worthwhile.
> >
> > I'm looking forward to any and all feedback you might have on this. I
> would
> > be happy to draw up a formal Incubator Proposal once we agree on a result
> > and shape.
> >
> > Anticipated FAQs:
> >
> > Q: Shouldn’t each project take care of its own training?
> > A: Yes and no. Ideally a project should be well documented but developing
> > material for professional “training” is quite different from writing
> > documentation in my experience. I think it's better to have a single
> > central project doing this than having this as part of every project
> > itself. One reason being that it makes sense to have cross-project
> > trainings (e.g. no one is interested in an “Apache Hadoop” training. They
> > all want to learn about the ecosystem).
> >
> > Q: Isn't the ASF all about code, now you want to do PPT!
> > A: We’ve had committers for documentation for a long time and I’d
> actually
> > like to see much more of that in the future. I think it’s not about the
> > code but about merit. We have a lot of Apache Way presentations now
> (which
> > could be part of this project) that go into depth on this one.
> >
> > Q: We have the Community project[2], should this not be part of that
> > project?
> > A: I honestly don’t know. There is definitely some overlap or alignment
> but
> > from all I’ve seen and read I think these could very well be two distinct
> > projects but “we” could follow a very similar structure and probably
> reuse
> > some content and tools.
> >
> > Q: I don't like PPT/keynote/Apache OpenOffice/HTML slides/... everyone
> > should do PechaKucha at all times.
> > A: We are not set on any format for the content, finding a suitable
> format
> > will be part of this project’s mission. To me this is a technical
> > discussion like it happens a hundred times a day on the Apache Jira and
> > Mailing Lists. There will be disagreement and some people will be
> > disappointed by some of the choices made but that’s no different than any
> > other project.
> >
> > Q: How can I integrate slides from this project to match my corporate
> > design? I'm not allowed to not use CD.
> > A: Another technical question (plus probably one that involves legal@)
> to
> > which I do not yet have an answer.
> >
> > Thank you Bernd Fondermann, Sönke Liebau and Tim Robertson for the review
> > of this mail.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Lars
> >
> > [0] <>
> > [1] <>
> > [2] <>
> >

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