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From Lars Francke <>
Subject Re: Establishing an ASF project for training
Date Mon, 17 Dec 2018 19:14:15 GMT

thanks for the heads up and for the support. I'd love for those companies
to contribute but I think there's no need to wait for them, no?

I understand that a meeting can be useful but if you have one it'd be great
if it could be an online meetup/call so I (from Germany) can also
participate. That said: I believe we can probably hash out most details on
the list as well?


On Mon, Dec 17, 2018 at 7:41 PM Kevin A. McGrail <>

> Hi Lars,
> Just a note that this might tie in nicely to the proposal I sent to a
> number of online companies: Coursera, Pluralsight, Udemy, & Udacity re:
> setting up a PMC for Training.  I got only one response which so far
> hasn't materialized with much.  However, I think the idea has a lot of
> merit and thought I would share what I wrote back in October.
> Regards,
> Invitation to a Discussion Panel re: the Apache Way and a PMC Proposal
> for Online Training
> Kevin A. McGrail <>
> Tue, Oct 16, 12:46 PM
> Hello All,
> Over the past few years, the ASF has been approached a number of times
> regarding online training/certification and working with several players
> in the industry.  To date, we haven't had much luck finding a way that
> works but just recently, we had another firm reach out to us.
> With this additional firm and combining it with recent ASF discussions
> about "central service" projects at the ASF to embrace things that are
> non-code related like graphics and documentation, we might have a way
> forward.
> In broad strokes, the idea of creating training material presents itself
> as an interesting idea for a project in the Apache Incubator.  The
> Incubator is where we grow and cultivate interesting ideas towards being
> top level projects.
> The plan at this stage is to get interested parties to discuss the
> idea.  What is needed is for a team of people to create a proposal for a
> project management committee to produce this training material just like
> how we produce OSS software in a vendor neutral, collaborative manner
> using the Apache Way.
> It's important to note that the ASF wouldn't drive this ship.  We'd help
> steer it with tugboats but we have a lot of experience with successful
> projects involving lots of different vendors that create value through
> open source.
> If the companies you represent might be able to help in doing that, I'd
> like to see if it's feasible and guide you.  The first step is to setup
> a meeting with interested parties to discuss things further.  Please let
> me know if you would be interested and if you recommend anyone else is
> invited for the meeting.
> Thanks for your time.
> Regards,
> On 12/17/2018 8:22 AM, Lars Francke wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > I'd like to start a discussion around establishing a project (or Central
> > Service) at the ASF to host and develop training and related materials
> for
> > ASF (and possibly others, where it makes sense) projects.
> >
> > I'm a committer and contributor to a few projects and make money doing
> > consulting work. Naturally people do contact us for training, and we have
> > developed our own slideware etc. but we find it incredibly hard work to
> > keep those up-to-date.
> >
> > We also work with lots of other companies and they all face the same
> > challenges. At the same time, we do not believe that a slide-deck is
> worth
> > that much on its own (others disagree, as we used to). We believe the
> > instructor is the real selling-point and especially when that person is
> > deeply embedded in the projects itself as a committer or PMC.
> >
> > So, we as a company[0] would like to donate our slide decks and other
> > resources we have and establish an ASF wide training project in the hopes
> > that we as a community can collaborate on those resources. We are
> currently
> > talking to partners to assess whether they are interested in joining us
> in
> > open sourcing their material.
> >
> > I'm not sure if this is a "Central Services" kind of thing or if it
> should
> > be an Incubator project to begin with. I'm posting this here because I
> > think there are good arguments for it being a project (e.g. it appears
> as a
> > “project” in all lists that others can contribute to, it follows a
> familiar
> > structure etc.). It might be a bit different than other projects though
> > (e.g. maybe there are no real releases?).
> >
> > This is also not limited to just slides obviously but also accompanying
> > code and potentially other media forms.
> >
> > One concern I have is that the material should be as objective as
> possible,
> > but our clients especially value our (often subjective) input on the
> > matureness of tools (third-party as well as ASF), processes and
> > communities. So, we usually include that in our slides. I guess anyone
> > using this material would need to customize it.
> >
> > This is how I see it but I'm happy to change based on feedback.
> > In scope:
> > * Develop shared material that can be used for trainings
> > * Develop “labs” or “hands-on” exercises
> > * Develop or document an infrastructure that can be used for those labs
> > * Potentially develop tools to manage the material (e.g. ideally a slide
> > repository that contains “modules” that can be easily reused and
> combined)
> >
> > Out of scope (for now at least)
> > * Something like what the CNCF has with their “Kubernetes Training
> > Program”[1] with certified training partners
> > * Project documentation
> >
> > I wasn’t sure whether to start this discussion in members@ and/or here
> or
> > somewhere else entirely. But as we believe it should be a “project” I
> think
> > this is the best place for it. I’m happy to cross-post if you think it
> > worthwhile.
> >
> > I'm looking forward to any and all feedback you might have on this. I
> would
> > be happy to draw up a formal Incubator Proposal once we agree on a result
> > and shape.
> >
> > Anticipated FAQs:
> >
> > Q: Shouldn’t each project take care of its own training?
> > A: Yes and no. Ideally a project should be well documented but developing
> > material for professional “training” is quite different from writing
> > documentation in my experience. I think it's better to have a single
> > central project doing this than having this as part of every project
> > itself. One reason being that it makes sense to have cross-project
> > trainings (e.g. no one is interested in an “Apache Hadoop” training. They
> > all want to learn about the ecosystem).
> >
> > Q: Isn't the ASF all about code, now you want to do PPT!
> > A: We’ve had committers for documentation for a long time and I’d
> actually
> > like to see much more of that in the future. I think it’s not about the
> > code but about merit. We have a lot of Apache Way presentations now
> (which
> > could be part of this project) that go into depth on this one.
> >
> > Q: We have the Community project[2], should this not be part of that
> > project?
> > A: I honestly don’t know. There is definitely some overlap or alignment
> but
> > from all I’ve seen and read I think these could very well be two distinct
> > projects but “we” could follow a very similar structure and probably
> reuse
> > some content and tools.
> >
> > Q: I don't like PPT/keynote/Apache OpenOffice/HTML slides/... everyone
> > should do PechaKucha at all times.
> > A: We are not set on any format for the content, finding a suitable
> format
> > will be part of this project’s mission. To me this is a technical
> > discussion like it happens a hundred times a day on the Apache Jira and
> > Mailing Lists. There will be disagreement and some people will be
> > disappointed by some of the choices made but that’s no different than any
> > other project.
> >
> > Q: How can I integrate slides from this project to match my corporate
> > design? I'm not allowed to not use CD.
> > A: Another technical question (plus probably one that involves legal@)
> to
> > which I do not yet have an answer.
> >
> > Thank you Bernd Fondermann, Sönke Liebau and Tim Robertson for the review
> > of this mail.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Lars
> >
> > [0] <>
> > [1] <>
> > [2] <>
> >
> --
> Kevin A. McGrail
> VP Fundraising, Apache Software Foundation
> Chair Emeritus Apache SpamAssassin Project
> - 703.798.0171

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