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From "John D. Ament" <johndam...@apache.org>
Subject Re: [VOTE] Heron to enter Apache Incubator
Date Fri, 23 Jun 2017 16:59:38 GMT
Based on the additional comments, I'm OK with this continuing graduation.
I would like the proposed podling to undertake a specific task to ensure
its clear what is different between Storm and Heron, to avoid any
unexpected competition or user confusion.

John

On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 12:32 PM Julien Le Dem <julien.ledem@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Hi Edward,
>
> A better comparison is SQL. Heron provides an implementation of the Storm
> topology api just like a query engine would implement SQL.
> It is a statement to the Storm API that it became a reference for
> streaming. This is the shared component and I agree that both projects
> should collaborate around it.
>
> The proposal already has a statement of cooperation: *"We believe that
> having Heron at Apache will help further the growth of the streaming
> compute community, as well as encourage cooperation and developer cross
> pollination with other Apache projects."*
> If Heron started at Twitter it has now contributors from more companies. In
> particular Microsoft which has been presenting this work in conferences.
> Joining the incubator is also about growing the community. Diversity is a
> goal but not a requirement to enter the incubator. Many successful projects
> have started with a little diversity and grown.
> Heron is its own project, different form Storm both in the programming
> language used and the deployment approach.
>
> This is not a new situation, the Apache foundation has Thrift and Avro,
> Parquet and ORC to name a few competing projects that address similar needs
> with a different approach each with their own strengths and weaknesses.
>
> Your concerns are valid and should be addressed during incubation (ensuring
> cross project collaboration, building more diversity, ...)
>
> On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 6:54 AM, Edward Capriolo <edlinuxguru@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > "The only overlap is that Heron supports the Storm user API for ease of
> > migration."
> >
> > It sounds possible possible that storm could be one user facing API with
> > two back ends inside one project.
> >
> > "Accumulo vs HBase" I do not think Accumulo and HBase is a valid
> comparison
> > one did not start out to emulate or be compatible with the other.
> >
> > In any case the largest issue I see is community. The proposed Heron
> > committer list is mostly a single company. Storm has already established
> a
> > community
> > with diverse committers. Also in terms of adoption, suppose you are a
> Storm
> > user do you run Heron side by side? Suppose your a vendor that packages
> > Hadoop and friends do you ship
> > both? Suppose you provide a no-sql database do you manage (test,
> document)
> > a connector for Heron and Storm? In my experience it is not trivial to
> keep
> > something working for example AbcBolt across Storm versions now that
> matrix
> > would double.
> >
> > I wish their was a stronger statement of cooperation in the proposal, for
> > example, "We with to establish a middle ground repo with shared
> components
> > etc". If nothing is shared other than a mentor or PMC your could run
> > into "software
> > X is the fasted way to run your storm bolts and spouts because of our
> > special sauce software Y does not have" and "software x is 2.2 years
> behind
> > the api of software Y they only implement and test 10% of the spouts we
> > support"
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 8:08 AM, John D. Ament <johndament@apache.org>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Bill,
> > >
> > > Would I be correct in understanding that Heron implements the same
> > protocol
> > > as Storm, but the actual implementation is different?
> > >
> > > John
> > >
> > > On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 1:36 AM Bill Graham <billgraham@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > > It's grossly inaccurate to refer to Heron as a Storm fork. There are
> > > about
> > > > 132k lines of code in the Heron codebase (plus 166k of codegen), of
> > which
> > > > about 7k are to implement the Apache Storm API bindings to the Heron
> > API.
> > > >
> > > > The Rationale section of the proposal discusses the Heron
> architecture,
> > > > which is a complete rewrite with little in common with Storm. The
> only
> > > > overlap is that Heron supports the Storm user API for ease of
> > migration.
> > > >
> > > > The value of having multiple projects to solve a common need is that
> > each
> > > > can foster innovation, collaboration and exchange of ideas in
> different
> > > > ways. This is not a new concept to Apache. You can look at the
> > incubator
> > > > discussions around Accumulo vs HBase (two implementations of the
> > BigTable
> > > > paper) for example, to see how two different approaches to a shared
> > > problem
> > > > can be a good thing.
> > > >
> > > > thanks,
> > > > Bill
> > > >
> > > > On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 6:45 PM, Von Gosling <vongosling@apache.org>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Hi,
> > > > >
> > > > > I will give +1(Non-binding), but,
> > > > >
> > > > > I have the similar question about so many streaming framework in
> the
> > > > > apache, how to develop community for themselves.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Best Regards,
> > > > > Von Gosling
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > 在 2017年6月23日,08:51,Edward Capriolo <edlinuxguru@gmail.com>
写道:
> > > > >
> > > > > I believe heron and storm should be merged back together. I do not
> > see
> > > > the
> > > > > value of storm and a storm fork in the asf.
> > > > >
> > > > > On Thursday, June 22, 2017, Bill Graham <billgraham@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks Taylor for relaying these sentiments, especially the part
> > about
> > > > the
> > > > > Heron website which is indeed poorly worded (I suspect this could
> > have
> > > > been
> > > > > the result of internal docs being open-sourced). I've opened this
> > pull
> > > > > request to update the language regarding Storm:
> > > > >
> > > > > https://github.com/twitter/heron/pull/1979
> > > > >
> > > > > On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 12:21 PM, P. Taylor Goetz <
> ptgoetz@gmail.com
> > > > > <javascript:;>> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > The Apache Storm PMC had a discussion regarding the Heron proposal.
> > In
> > > > >
> > > > > the
> > > > >
> > > > > spirit of openness I wanted to bring some of the sentiments
> expressed
> > > in
> > > > > that discussion back to this list. Please note that I am
> paraphrasing
> > > > >
> > > > > from
> > > > >
> > > > > that discussion and attempting to relay opinions of the collective
> > PMC,
> > > > >
> > > > > not
> > > > >
> > > > > necessarily that of any individual.
> > > > >
> > > > > * There is a general disappointment that the Heron community chose
> > not
> > > to
> > > > > engage with the Storm community and instead chose a separate path.
> > > > > * A majority of the PMC supports Heron’s incubation, though some
> felt
> > > it
> > > > > would result in unnecessary duplication of effort.
> > > > > * A majority of the PMC supports the two projects working closely
> > > > > together. A number of PMC members suggested the two projects merge
> in
> > > > >
> > > > > some
> > > > >
> > > > > way.
> > > > > * Many PMC members took issue some of the marketing language on the
> > > Heron
> > > > > website, particularly Heron being billed as “the direct successor
> to
> > > > >
> > > > > Apache
> > > > >
> > > > > Storm” and the prominent “Upgrade from Storm” links.  The main
> > concern
> > > > >
> > > > > here
> > > > >
> > > > > was such phrasing has somewhat of a hostile tone and undermines the
> > > > >
> > > > > desire
> > > > >
> > > > > for better collaboration, as well as confusing users.
> > > > >
> > > > > One of my goals as a proposed mentor for Heron and a Storm PMC
> member
> > > is
> > > > > to address some of these concerns and encourage collaboration. As
I
> > > > > mentioned to the Storm PMC on that thread, if there are ongoing
> > > concerns
> > > > > from either the Storm PMC or the Heron PPMC about me acting as a
> > > mentor,
> > > > >
> > > > > I
> > > > >
> > > > > would be willing to step down.
> > > > >
> > > > > +1 (binding)
> > > > >
> > > > > -Taylor
> > > > >
> > > > > On Jun 16, 2017, at 4:41 PM, Bill Graham <billgraham@gmail.com
> > > > >
> > > > > <javascript:;>> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Hi,
> > > > >
> > > > > Based on the discussion on the incubator mailing list[1] I would
> like
> > > > >
> > > > > to
> > > > >
> > > > > call a vote to add Heron to the Apache Incubator.
> > > > >
> > > > > The full proposal is available below, and is also available on the
> > > > >
> > > > > Apache
> > > > >
> > > > > Incubator wiki at:
> > > > >   https://wiki.apache.org/incubator/HeronProposal
> > > > >
> > > > > Please vote:
> > > > > [ ] +1, bring Heron into Incubator
> > > > > [ ] -1, do not bring Heron into Incubator, because...
> > > > >
> > > > > The vote will open for 7 days until Friday June 23 at 14:00 PT.
> > > > >
> > > > > Thank you
> > > > >
> > > > > 1 -
> > > > >
> https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/fb91f527ef479bb5df45bf2c9d93b7
> > > > >
> > > > > 786c3fa6cdbfeba3128599df79@%3Cgeneral.incubator.apache.org%3E
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > = Heron Proposal =
> > > > >
> > > > > = Abstract =
> > > > > Heron is a real-time, distributed, fault-tolerant stream processing
> > > > >
> > > > > engine
> > > > >
> > > > > initially developed by Twitter.
> > > > >
> > > > > = Proposal =
> > > > >
> > > > > Heron is a real-time stream processing engine built for high
> > > > >
> > > > > performance,
> > > > >
> > > > > ease of manageability, performance predictability and developer
> > > > > productivity[1]. We wish to develop a community around Heron to
> > > > >
> > > > > increase
> > > > >
> > > > > contributions and see Heron thrive in an open forum.
> > > > >
> > > > > = Background =
> > > > >
> > > > > Heron provides the ability for developers to compose directed
> acyclic
> > > > > graphs (DAGs) of real-time query execution logic (i.e. a topology)
> > and
> > > > > submit the topology to execute on a pluggable job scheduling system
> > > > >
> > > > > (e.g.,
> > > > >
> > > > > Apache Aurora, YARN, Marathon, etc). Users can employ either the
> > native
> > > > > Heron API or the Apache Storm API to develop the topology. Heron
> > > > >
> > > > > supports
> > > > >
> > > > > the Storm API for ease of migration, but beyond that Heron’s
> > > > >
> > > > > architecture
> > > > >
> > > > > differs considerably from Storm’s.
> > > > >
> > > > > Users submit a topology to the scheduler using the Heron client,
> > which
> > > > >
> > > > > uses
> > > > >
> > > > > the Heron binary libraries to deploy all daemons required to run
> and
> > > > >
> > > > > manage
> > > > >
> > > > > the topology. The topology therefore has no reliance on centrally
> > > > >
> > > > > managed
> > > > >
> > > > > Heron services, only on a generic job scheduling system, which
> lends
> > > > >
> > > > > itself
> > > > >
> > > > > well to be run on top of Apache Aurora/Mesos or Apache Hadoop/YARN
> > > > >
> > > > > (among
> > > > >
> > > > > others).
> > > > >
> > > > > The scheduler runs each topology as a job consisting of multiple
> > > > > containers. One of the containers runs the topology master,
> > responsible
> > > > >
> > > > > for
> > > > >
> > > > > managing the topology. The remaining containers each runs a stream
> > > > >
> > > > > manager
> > > > >
> > > > > responsible for data routing, a metrics manager that collects and
> > > > >
> > > > > reports
> > > > >
> > > > > various metrics and a number of processes called Heron instances
> > which
> > > > >
> > > > > run
> > > > >
> > > > > the user-defined logic on the stream of tuples. Parallelism is
> > achieved
> > > > >
> > > > > via
> > > > >
> > > > > process-based isolation of Heron instances, which provides
> > predictable
> > > > > performance while simplifying debugging. The containers are
> allocated
> > > > >
> > > > > and
> > > > >
> > > > > managed by the scheduler framework based on resource availability
> of
> > > > >
> > > > > nodes
> > > > >
> > > > > in the cluster. The metadata for the topology, such as the physical
> > > > >
> > > > > plan
> > > > >
> > > > > and execution details, are stored in the pluggable Heron State
> > Manager
> > > > > (e.g. Apache ZooKeeper).
> > > > >
> > > > > = Rationale =
> > > > >
> > > > > Heron is a general-purpose, modular and extensible platform that
> can
> > be
> > > > > leveraged to support common, real-time analytics use cases. There
> is
> > an
> > > > > increasing demand for open-source, scalable real-time analytics
> > > > >
> > > > > systems.
> > > > >
> > > > > We
> > > > >
> > > > > believe that Heron can be leveraged by other organizations to build
> > > > > streaming applications that can benefit from its robustness, high
> > > > > performance, adaptability to cloud environments and ease of use.
> > > > >
> > > > > Moreover,
> > > > >
> > > > > we hope that open-sourcing Heron will help to further evolve the
> > > > >
> > > > > technology
> > > > >
> > > > > as the project attracts contributors with diverse backgrounds and
> > areas
> > > > >
> > > > > of
> > > > >
> > > > > expertise.
> > > > >
> > > > > We believe the Apache foundation is a great fit as the long-term
> home
> > > > >
> > > > > for
> > > > >
> > > > > Heron, as it provides an established process for community-driven
> > > > > development and decision making by consensus. This is exactly the
> > model
> > > > >
> > > > > we
> > > > >
> > > > > want for future Heron development.
> > > > >
> > > > > = Initial Goals =
> > > > >
> > > > > * Move the existing codebase, website, documentation, and mailing
> > lists
> > > > >
> > > > > to
> > > > >
> > > > > Apache-hosted infrastructure.
> > > > > * Integrate with the Apache development process.
> > > > > * Ensure all dependencies are compliant with Apache License version
> > > > >
> > > > > 2.0.
> > > > >
> > > > > * Incrementally develop and release per Apache guidelines.
> > > > >
> > > > > = Current Status =
> > > > >
> > > > > Heron is a stable project used in production at Twitter since 2014
> > and
> > > > >
> > > > > open
> > > > >
> > > > > sourced under the ASL v2 license in 2016. The Heron source code is
> > > > > currently hosted at github.com (https://github.com/twitter/heron),
> > > > >
> > > > > which
> > > > >
> > > > > will seed the Apache git repository.
> > > > >
> > > > > = Meritocracy =
> > > > >
> > > > > By submitting this incubator proposal, we’re expressing our intent
> to
> > > > >
> > > > > build
> > > > >
> > > > > a diverse developer community around Heron that will conduct itself
> > > > > according to The Apache Way and use a meritocratic means of
> building
> > > > >
> > > > > it's
> > > > >
> > > > > committer base. Several companies and universities have already
> > > > >
> > > > > expressed
> > > > >
> > > > > interest in and contributed to Heron. Our goal is to grow the Heron
> > > > > community by encouraging open communication, contribution and
> > > > >
> > > > > participation
> > > > >
> > > > > of all types, and ensuring that contributors are recognized
> > > > >
> > > > > appropriately.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > = Community =
> > > > >
> > > > > Heron is currently being used by Twitter, Google, Machine Zone and
> > > > > ndustrial.io and has received significant contributions by
> Microsoft
> > > > >
> > > > > and
> > > > >
> > > > > Streamlio. By bringing Heron into the Apache ecosystem, we believe
> we
> > > > >
> > > > > can
> > > > >
> > > > > attract even more developers who are interested in creating
> real-time
> > > > > systems to build the project's contributor base.
> > > > >
> > > > > == Core Developers ==
> > > > >
> > > > > Current core developers are engineers from Twitter, Google,
> Microsoft
> > > > >
> > > > > and
> > > > >
> > > > > Streamlio.
> > > > >
> > > > > == Alignment ==
> > > > >
> > > > > Heron utilizes a number of Apache technologies. Heron leverages
> > Apache
> > > > > ZooKeeper for coordination and has scheduler implementations to
> > > > >
> > > > > integrate
> > > > >
> > > > > with Apache Mesos, Apache Aurora and Apache Hadoop's YARN (via
> Apache
> > > > >
> > > > > REEF)
> > > > >
> > > > > as well as spout implementations to integrate with Apache Kafka and
> > > > >
> > > > > metrics
> > > > >
> > > > > implementations to integrate with Scribe. Heron also implements the
> > > > >
> > > > > Apache
> > > > >
> > > > > Storm user-level API, which allows topologies written against Storm
> > to
> > > > >
> > > > > run
> > > > >
> > > > > in Heron. We believe that having Heron at Apache will help further
> > the
> > > > > growth of the streaming compute community, as well as encourage
> > > > >
> > > > > cooperation
> > > > >
> > > > > and developer cross pollination with other Apache projects.
> > > > >
> > > > > = Known Risks =
> > > > >
> > > > > == Orphaned Products ==
> > > > >
> > > > > The risk of the Heron project being abandoned is minimal. It is
> used
> > in
> > > > > production at Twitter and Google and other companies are evaluating
> > or
> > > > > adopting it for production use.
> > > > >
> > > > > == Inexperience with Open Source ==
> > > > >
> > > > > All of the core contributors to the project have considerable
> > > > >
> > > > > experience
> > > > >
> > > > > with open source software development. Bill Graham[2], Ashvin
> > > > >
> > > > > Agrawal[3]
> > > > >
> > > > > and Supun Kamburugamuve[4], committers on the project, are PMCs on
> > > > >
> > > > > other
> > > > >
> > > > > Apache projects and Bill and Ashvin have gone through the Apache
> > > > >
> > > > > incubator
> > > > >
> > > > > process. Twitter has already donated numerous projects to the ASF
> > > > >
> > > > > (e.g.,
> > > > >
> > > > > Apache Mesos, Apache Aurora, Apache Parquet). We also plan to be
> > > > >
> > > > > mentored
> > > > >
> > > > > by experienced ASF members that can help with any roadblocks.
> > > > >
> > > > > == Homogenous Developers ==
> > > > >
> > > > > Initial committers come from 5 separate organizations. Our
> intention
> > is
> > > > > increase the diversity of contributing developers and their
> > > > >
> > > > > affiliations.
> > > > >
> > > > > To date github contributions have come from approximately 50
> > > > >
> > > > > contributors
> > > > >
> > > > > from outside the Twitter team.
> > > > >
> > > > > == Reliance on Salaried Developers ==
> > > > >
> > > > > It is expected that Heron development will occur on both salaried
> > time
> > > > >
> > > > > and
> > > > >
> > > > > on volunteer time. The majority of initial committers are paid by
> > their
> > > > > employers to contribute to this project. We are committed to
> > recruiting
> > > > > additional committers from other organizations as well as
> > non-salaried
> > > > > committers to join project.
> > > > >
> > > > > == Relationships with Other Apache Products ==
> > > > >
> > > > > As mentioned in the Alignment section, Heron implements the Apache
> > > > >
> > > > > Storm
> > > > >
> > > > > API and integrates with multiple Apache schedulers (Apache Mesos,
> > > > >
> > > > > Apache
> > > > >
> > > > > Aurora and Apache Hadoop's YARN) as well as Apache ZooKeeper and
> > Apache
> > > > > Thrift.
> > > > >
> > > > > == An Excessive Fascination with the Apache Brand ==
> > > > >
> > > > > Heron's popularity is growing in the streaming compute space and
we
> > are
> > > > > long time supporters of the Apache brand. This proposal is not for
> > the
> > > > > purpose of generating publicity through. Rather, the primary
> benefits
> > > > >
> > > > > to
> > > > >
> > > > > joining Apache are those of community building and open decision
> > making
> > > > > outlined in the Rationale section.
> > > > >
> > > > > == Documentation ==
> > > > >
> > > > > This proposal exists online as
> > > > > http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/HeronProposal. Extensive
> > > > >
> > > > > documentation
> > > > >
> > > > > can
> > > > >
> > > > > be found on github at https://twitter.github.io/heron and the
> source
> > > > >
> > > > > code
> > > > >
> > > > > is well documented.
> > > > >
> > > > > == Source and Intellectual Property Submission Plan ==
> > > > >
> > > > > The Heron codebase is currently hosted on Github:
> > > > > https://github.com/twitter/heron. During incubation, the codebase
> > will
> > > > >
> > > > > be
> > > > >
> > > > > migrated to Apache infrastructure. The source code is already ASF
> 2.0
> > > > > licensed.
> > > > >
> > > > > == External Dependencies ==
> > > > >
> > > > > All external libraries have ASF 2.0 compatible licenses except for
> > > > >
> > > > > pylint.
> > > > >
> > > > > The pylint library is GPL licensed, but is only used for pre-build
> > > > >
> > > > > Python
> > > > >
> > > > > style checks and is neither bundled with, nor relied upon by, the
> > Heron
> > > > > source or binary release artifacts.
> > > > >
> > > > > == Cryptography ==
> > > > >
> > > > > Heron does not use any cryptography libraries.
> > > > >
> > > > > = Required Resources =
> > > > >
> > > > > == Mailing lists ==
> > > > >
> > > > > * private@heron.incubator.apache.org <javascript:;> (with
> moderated
> > > > >
> > > > > subscriptions)
> > > > >
> > > > > * dev@heron.incubator.apache.org <javascript:;>
> > > > > * commits@heron.incubator.apache.org <javascript:;>
> > > > > * user@heron.incubator.apache.org <javascript:;>
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > == Subversion Directory ==
> > > > >
> > > > > Git is the preferred source control system: git://
> > git.apache.org/heron
> > > > >
> > > > > == Issue Tracking ==
> > > > >
> > > > > JIRA: Heron (HERON)
> > > > >
> > > > > == Initial Committers ==
> > > > >
> > > > > * Andrew Jorgensen (andrew at andrewjorgensen dot com)
> > > > > * Ashvin Agrawal (ashvin at apache dot org)*
> > > > > * Avrilia Floratou (avrilia dot floratou at gmail dot com)
> > > > > * Bill Graham (billgraham at apache dot org)*
> > > > > * Brian Hatfield (bmhatfield at gmail dot com)
> > > > > * Chris Kellogg (cckellogg at gmail dot com)
> > > > > * Huijun Wu (huijun dot wu dot 2010 at gmail dot com)
> > > > > * Karthik Ramasamy (karthik at gmail dot com)
> > > > > * Maosong Fu (maosongfu at gmail dot com)
> > > > > * Neng Lu(freeneng at gmail dot com)
> > > > > * Runhang Li (obj dot runhang at gmail dot com)
> > > > > * Sanjeev Kulkarni (sanjeevrk at gmail dot com)
> > > > > * Supun Kamburugamuve (supun at apache dot org)*
> > > > > * Thomas Sun (tom dot ssf at gmail dot com)
> > > > > * Yaliang Wang (yaliang dot w dot wang at ieee dot org)
> > > > >
> > > > > == Affiliations ==
> > > > >
> > > > > * Andrew Jorgensen (Google)
> > > > > * Ashvin Agrawal (Microsoft)
> > > > > * Avrilia Floratou (Microsoft)
> > > > > * Bill Graham (Twitter)
> > > > > * Brian Hatfield (Google)
> > > > > * Chris Kellogg (Twitter)
> > > > > * Huijun Wu (Twitter)
> > > > > * Karthik Ramasamy (Streamlio)
> > > > > * Maosong Fu (Twitter)
> > > > > * Neng Lu (Twitter)
> > > > > * Runhang Li (Twitter)
> > > > > * Sanjeev Kulkarni (Streamlio)
> > > > > * Supun Kamburugamuve (Indiana University)
> > > > > * Thomas Sun (Twitter)
> > > > > * Yaliang Wang (Twitter)
> > > > >
> > > > > = Sponsors =
> > > > >
> > > > > == Champion ==
> > > > >
> > > > > * Julien Le Dem (julien at apache dot org)
> > > > >
> > > > > == Nominated Mentors ==
> > > > >
> > > > > * Jake Farrell (jfarrell at apache dot org)
> > > > > * Jacques Nadeau (jacques at apache dot org)
> > > > > * Julien Le Dem (julien at apache dot org)
> > > > > * P. Taylor Goetz (ptgoetz at apache dot org)
> > > > >
> > > > > == Sponsoring Entity ==
> > > > >
> > > > > The Apache Incubator
> > > > >
> > > > > == Footnotes ==
> > > > >
> > > > > * 1 - Papers detailing Heron are available at
> > > > > http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=2742788 and
> > > > > http://sites.computer.org/debull/A15dec/p15.pdf.
> > > > > * 2 - http://home.apache.org/phonebook.html?uid=billgraham
> > > > > * 3 - http://home.apache.org/phonebook.html?uid=ashvin
> > > > > * 4 - http://home.apache.org/phonebook.html?uid=supun
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > ---------
> > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> > > > >
> > > > > <javascript:;>
> > > > >
> > > > > For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
> > > > >
> > > > > <javascript:;>
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Sorry this was sent from mobile. Will do less grammar and spell
> check
> > > > than
> > > > > usual.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

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