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From Alex Harui <aha...@adobe.com>
Subject Re: [DISCUSS] China Contribution.
Date Fri, 11 Nov 2016 22:45:10 GMT
Educate, trust and verify.

IMO, there shouldn't be a rule that you can't write in non-English on dev@
or user@.  You just have to understand the impact of doing so.  Sometimes
it will make sense to do so, other times, not.  You have to know who in
your community knows what languages.  In Seattle, airport signs are in
English and Japanese, in San Diego, they are in English and Spanish.

If you trust that committers and PMC members have been educated on how to
grow a community, they will choose the right words.  You probably have to
educate folks that the ASF Board all know English so decisions need to be
recorded in English.

But for sure, not "everything" has to be on dev@.  Only decisions and some
final discussion leading to those decisions.  Lots of English discussions
happen off-list inside companies with too many committers as employees.
Or at Hackathons, or in chat rooms.  And sometimes folks on dev@ are left
out but they aren't supposed to be.  Whether English or Chinese or
something else was used doesn’t matter.

So far, just about every decision ends up with a lot of English keywords
on commits@.  I don't know of any popular programming languages that don't
use English keywords.  So watching commits@ is one way to verify.  And if
something happened you don't like, you start a discussion and figure out
what language to use to communicate most efficiently.  When I've visited
development centers in India, China and Japan and had development teams
visit me in the US from Romania, I can guarantee they discussed among
themselves in native languages and then summarized for me in English.  No
big deal.  I trust them to include me at some point and they do, in
English, since that's the language we have in common.

Projects coming to the ASF without a desire to draw people who don't speak
a non-English language probably aren't a good fit at the ASF.  Projects
coming to the ASF must understand that they must record decisions and
report progress in English.  Other than that, choose the words that will
bring in the most people.  But you can use more than one language.

My 2 cents,
-Alex

On 11/11/16, 12:47 PM, "Woonsan Ko" <woonsan@apache.org> wrote:

>On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 3:17 PM, Gunnar Tapper <tapper.gunnar@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> Copy/paste into a Translator, which detected the language
>>automatically: In
>> practice, the question of the language to use from a list of diffusion
>>is
>> specious. English it the lingua franca of the 21st century.
>>
>> Du kan göra precis samma sak med ett minoritetsspråk som svenska. Språk
>>är
>> inte längre ett hinder.
>>
>> Take a look at how the Minecraft generation (I'm blessed with one)
>> operates. They have no issues to jump onto servers that use languages
>>they
>> don't understand and then communicate using Translators. It's pretty
>> awesome. Real-time translators are coming. See Skype Translator for an
>> example.
>>
>> So, I'd argue that lingua franca is already becoming a thing of the
>>past as
>> people get more comfortable with the idea of using them in everyday
>>life.
>> Heck, just take a look at how people interact on Facebook these days --
>>the
>> translate function is extremely cool.
>>
>> You can view language as a barrier to community building or you can use
>> technology to remove the barrier.
>>
>> Based on this discussion, I am going to add a new section to the main
>> project page that discusses communication in different languages
>> encouraging people to write questions in the own language if they're not
>> comfortable with English -- I rather have the question than no
>>interaction.
>>
>> I'll tell them that the community uses translator software when needed
>>and
>> that responses is likely to be in English so that they can translate
>>back
>> as needed. A smalll first step but an important one.
>
>I guess you mean that in the user@ lists. That should be fine in my
>understanding from the discussions here and there.
>But as Shane and others pointed out, dev@ lists should be using
>English or Globish-like for good reasons. I would encourage committers
>to do so.
>
>Just my two cents,
>
>Woonsan
>
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Gunnar
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 12:30 PM, Emmanuel Lécharny
>><elecharny@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> En pratique, la question de la langue à utiliser sur une liste de
>>> diffusion est spécieuse. L'anglais est la Lingua Franca du 21ème
>>>siècle.
>>>
>>>
>>> And if you haven't understood what I wrote in my native language, which
>>> is understood by around 500 million people around the globe, I guess
>>>you
>>> get my implicit point ;-)
>>>
>>>
>>> More seriously, it's not about how good are developpers in english :
>>> many of the Apache developpers are not english native speakers, and we
>>> do many mistakes. That does not matter too much : nobody will blame
>>> anyone for that. At some point, code is not in english, but in C, Java,
>>> Scala, etc... If you work as an IT person, you already have to face
>>> english in almost all the technical documents found on internet. Take
>>> the RFCs for instance : have thay all been translated to chinese ?
>>>
>>>
>>> But the most important thing : we are all about community. It's pretty
>>> hard to build it if you split it in 2, or more, because there is a
>>> language issue. It's going to be hard to communicate between a split
>>> community, way harder than using a very basic english...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Le 11/11/16 à 07:45, Reynold Xin a écrit :
>>> > Adding members@
>>> >
>>> > On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 10:40 PM, Reynold Xin <rxin@apache.org>
>>>wrote:
>>> >
>>> >> To play devil's advocate: is it OK for Apache projects that consist
>>> >> primarily of Chinese developers to communicate in Chinese? Or put it
>>> >> differently -- is it a requirement that all communications must be
>>>in
>>> >> English?
>>> >>
>>> >> I can see an inclusiveness argument for having to use English, as
>>> English
>>> >> is one of the most common languages. However, many talented software
>>> >> developers in China don't have the sufficient level of proficiency
>>>when
>>> it
>>> >> comes to English, as the penetration rate of English in China is
>>>much
>>> lower
>>> >> than other countries. It is as hard for Chinese speakers to learn
>>> English
>>> >> as for English speakers to learn Chinese.
>>> >>
>>> >> One can certainly argue forcing everybody to use English will also
>>> exclude
>>> >> those Chinese developers, and from the perspective of the number of
>>> native
>>> >> speakers, Mandarin (a Chinese dialect) outnumbers English 3 to 1
>>> according
>>> >> to Wikipedia.
>>> >>
>>> >> Similar argument also applies to Japanese, and many other countries,
>>> >> except the number of Chinese speakers is much larger.
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 10:18 PM, Luke Han <lukehan@apache.org>
>>>wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >>> Hi Gunnar,
>>> >>>
>>> >>> I don't think your point is right, one community's problem (maybe
>>>not
>>> >>> real,
>>> >>> but just
>>> >>> refer to what you mentioned) could NOT represent all contributions
>>>from
>>> >>> China,
>>> >>> or any other territories from all of the world.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> This will misleading people to ignore contributions from Chinese
>>>and
>>> LABEL
>>> >>> for such
>>> >>> contributors and committers..as your pattern, there are tons of
>>> "issue" to
>>> >>> describe like
>>> >>> Russian Contribution, German Contributions, Canada contribution
or
>>> >>> others...
>>> >>> that's not right way.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Yes, Chinese people are not native English speakers, but they are
>>> >>> contributing to
>>> >>> most of the ASF projects and others foundation projects very much,
>>> >>> involved
>>> >>> in many
>>> >>> discussion, development, decision and others deeply.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Let's try to talk with some data, here's summary about last 31 days
>>> >>> mailing
>>> >>> list activity from lists.apache.org [1]:
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Project         |  Emails    |   Topics    |   Participants
>>> >>> HBase         |   610      |    406      |   100
>>> >>> Spark           |   412      |    88       |   124
>>> >>> Kylin             |   294      |    144      |   61
>>> >>> CarbonData |   852      |    250      |   116
>>> >>> HAWQ          |   284      |    109      |   57
>>> >>> Trafodion      |   87       |    20       |   25
>>> >>>
>>> >>> There are many Chinese people are participating in these projects,
>>>you
>>> >>> could check
>>> >>> each one and see how Chinese people are discussing within mailing
>>>list.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> It's really not easy for Chinese people, they have to find out a
>>>way to
>>> >>> access
>>> >>> gmail or others since there's GFW, they are not native English
>>> speakers,
>>> >>> they have limited experiences for open source especially the Apache
>>> Way.
>>> >>> But they are willing to contribute, willing to participate global
>>> >>> community, and try
>>> >>> their best to learn and follow The Apache Way. We should have the
>>> patience
>>> >>> for
>>> >>> those new comers.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> As one thing I'm doing now is try to let more people to know our
>>> journey,
>>> >>> our experience
>>> >>>  about how to follow the Apache Way, how we overcome such
>>> >>> challenges...through
>>> >>> conference, events, meetup, blog, book and so on...and also helping
>>> many
>>> >>> potential projects
>>> >>> who are interesting to join Apache family.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> I would like suggest to change this topic to something like "Help
>>> >>> Trafodion
>>> >>> community"
>>> >>> which will help to focus on real issue and your concern (Does
>>>Trafodion
>>> >>> PMC
>>> >>> know
>>> >>> this concern?)  I'm very happy to help...share with you many
>>>articles,
>>> >>> session recordings and
>>> >>> others about open source, even could try to do some face to face
>>> >>> discussion
>>> >>> if necessary:-)
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> [1] https://lists.apache.org  <https://lists.apache.org>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 3:00 AM, Gunnar Tapper <
>>> tapper.gunnar@gmail.com>
>>> >>> wrote:
>>> >>>
>>> >>>> Hi,
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> Using the RocketMQ proposal to start a larger discussion.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> Apache Trafodion is another project that has a lot of contribution
>>> from
>>> >>>> China.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> One of the struggles I've seen is that the contributors aren't
>>>that
>>> >>> active
>>> >>>> on email. Rather, they prefer to use a forum on QQ communicating
>>>in
>>> >>>> Chinese.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> I'm currently the release manager and I must admit that it's
hard
>>>not
>>> to
>>> >>>> see all discussions. Several of us are trying to encourage
>>>questions
>>> etc
>>> >>>> via the email lists but users just prefer Chinese forums.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> I suspect that Apache will see more of this behavior moving
>>>forward,
>>> >>>> especially as other proposals come in. So, I'm hoping that
>>>members in
>>> >>> China
>>> >>>> can help advise on what can be done to address communication
>>>issues
>>> like
>>> >>>> this.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> Thanks,
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> Gunnar
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> On Nov 5, 2016 12:21 PM, "Ross Gardler"
>>><Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com>
>>> >>>> wrote:
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> Some folks may remember my state of the feather session a couple
>>>of
>>> >>> years
>>> >>>> ago when I called for more awareness of the ASFs role in open
>>>source
>>> >>> beyond
>>> >>>> English speaking countries. This was prompted by a fact finding
>>>trip
>>> to
>>> >>>> China.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> RocketMQ and the team behind it was one of the projects I talked
>>>to.
>>> We
>>> >>>> discussed the Apache way at length, however I have not been
>>>involved
>>> >>> with
>>> >>>> this proposal.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> I'm excited to see this proposal. I hope we can bring this
>>>project and
>>> >>>> welcome the excellent team I met in China into the foundation.
We
>>>will
>>> >>> need
>>> >>>> to work hard to ensure the project is a success. Like other
China
>>>born
>>> >>>> projects we will find that there are cultural differences that
we
>>>need
>>> >>> to
>>> >>>> understand, but this would not be the first time we, as a
>>>foundation
>>> >>> and as
>>> >>>> individuals, accept an opportunity to grow in this way. Having
met
>>> some
>>> >>> of
>>> >>>> the proposing team I am confident that with the right mentors
the
>>> >>> project
>>> >>>> can succeed.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> Bruce, thanks for stepping up to help.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> Ross
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> ---
>>> >>>> Twitter: @rgardler
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> ________________________________
>>> >>>> From: Bruce Snyder <bruce.snyder@gmail.com>
>>> >>>> Sent: Saturday, November 5, 2016 9:21:47 AM
>>> >>>> To: general@incubator.apache.org
>>> >>>> Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] RocketMQ Incubation Proposal
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> Hi John,
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> Proposals for new ASF projects are offered to this list for
>>> constructive
>>> >>>> feedback. I am happy to help steer the RocketMQ proposal and
>>>project
>>> >>> using
>>> >>>> your suggestions.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> First, as explained previously in this discussion thread by
Von
>>> Gosling,
>>> >>>> there was some company IP that was mistakenly committed to the
>>>Github
>>> >>>> repository and through a '...unlucky... scavenging activity'
the
>>> history
>>> >>>> was
>>> >>>> erased, as Von put it. I interpret this to mean that someone's
>>>git-fu
>>> >>> went
>>> >>>> awry which unintentionally caused the history to be removed.
Von
>>>also
>>> >>> gives
>>> >>>> further explanation of the project history in a response below.
>>> Indeed,
>>> >>>> this is an unfortunate situation (and one that I've seen before
>>>with
>>> >>> git),
>>> >>>> but should this prevent the project from coming to the ASF to
>>>improve
>>> >>> and
>>> >>>> grow under the auspices of the ASF and The Apache Way?
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> Second, regarding your statement: 'and its a bit surprising,
since
>>> >>> Bruce is
>>> >>>> the chair of one of the competitors' -- All projects at the
ASF
>>>exist
>>> >>>> together regardless of their focus and all projects needs good
>>> mentors,
>>> >>>> regardless of whether they are seen as competing or not. My
>>>interest
>>> in
>>> >>>> helping the RocketMQ project is no different than my interest
in
>>> >>> continuing
>>> >>>> to be involved with the ActiveMQ project. I have nearly 15 years
>>> >>> experience
>>> >>>> at the ASF and I'm not here to play games and favor one project
>>>over
>>> >>>> another. I continue to be involved with the ASF to collaborate
>>> >>>> constructively with others on open source and to foster a
>>>community of
>>> >>>> inclusiveness where we can all continually learn and grow. The
>>>ASF is
>>> an
>>> >>>> inclusive place where even experienced projects can learn from
new
>>> >>>> projects. As I've said for many years, we all come for code
and
>>>stay
>>> for
>>> >>>> the people. My intent is to use my experience to help a new
>>>project
>>> and
>>> >>>> people to the ASF.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> Third, I think the two questions you have posed are both good
>>> >>> suggestions
>>> >>>> for discussion and debate and might even help to improve the
>>>proposal.
>>> >>> Even
>>> >>>> if there are no solid answers today, I think these would also
be
>>>great
>>> >>>> ideas to debate around the code base and within the project
moving
>>> >>> forward.
>>> >>>> I really like the idea of cross-pollination with the projects
you
>>> >>> mentioned
>>> >>>> as well as others at the ASF. Since I have not worked on the
>>>RocketMQ
>>> >>> code
>>> >>>> base, I will allow Von to respond to two questions posed by
John
>>>with
>>> >>> his
>>> >>>> thoughts:
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> Von, can you please provide your thoughts on the following two
>>> questions
>>> >>>> specifically:
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> - How can RocketMQ work with the existing Kafka or ActiveMQ
>>> communities
>>> >>> to
>>> >>>> build cross platform clients?
>>> >>>> - How can RocketMQ look to leverage Cassandra, Geode, Derby
as
>>>backend
>>> >>>> persistence stores?
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> Bruce
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 3:26 PM, John D. Ament
>>><john.d.ament@gmail.com
>>> >
>>> >>>> wrote:
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 4:43 PM Roman Shaposhnik <
>>> roman@shaposhnik.org
>>> >>>>> wrote:
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>> The proposal looks fine in general, but I'm slightly
concerned
>>> >>> about:
>>> >>>>>>    https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=
>>> >>>> https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Falibaba%2FRocketMQ%2Fgraphs%
>>> >>>> 2Fcontributors&data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%
>>> >>>> 7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011
>>> >>>> db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176036&sdata=96ixj1Js5%
>>> >>>> 2BytkM0Pru7nABYfTTYimOP5se5POgOMleo%3D&reserved=0
>>> >>>>>> It seems that the model so far has been -- through huge
blobs of
>>> >>>>>> code over the wall. Given that the composition of initial
>>>committers
>>> >>>>>> is all from Alibaba I hope their mentors will spend
a lot of
>>>time
>>> >>>>>> making sure that "commit early, commit often" mentality
>>>prevails.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> In addition to that, I can't seem to reconcile the statement:
>>> >>>>>>    "The source code was opened up in 2012."
>>> >>>>>> with what I see on GitHub. What am I missing?
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>> So I think these are the same points I was bringing up as
well.
>>>I
>>> >>>> suspect
>>> >>>>> its a case where there wasn't a ton of open source development
>>>on the
>>> >>>>> product and it was kept internal.
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> I'm still a bit leary about the "relationship with other
apache
>>> >>> products"
>>> >>>>> section still.  I'm not interested in seeing how a podling
>>>competes
>>> >>> with
>>> >>>>> other projects (and its a bit surprising, since Bruce is
the
>>>chair of
>>> >>> one
>>> >>>>> of the competitors), but instead how the podling has synergies
>>>with
>>> >>> the
>>> >>>>> other components.  I raised that they're using ASF projects
>>>today in
>>> >>>> their
>>> >>>>> code base.
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> Some other ways to address this section:
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> - How can RocketMQ work with the existing Kafka or ActiveMQ
>>> >>> communities
>>> >>>> to
>>> >>>>> build cross platform clients?
>>> >>>>> - How can RocketMQ look to leverage Cassandra, Geode, Derby
as
>>> backend
>>> >>>>> persistence stores?
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> etc..
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>> Thanks,
>>> >>>>>> Roman.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 11:00 AM, Brian McCallister <
>>> >>> brianm@skife.org>
>>> >>>>>> wrote:
>>> >>>>>>> +1 !
>>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 8:37 AM, Jim Jagielski <jim@jagunet.com>
>>> >>>> wrote:
>>> >>>>>>>> Cool.
>>> >>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>> +1
>>> >>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>> On Nov 3, 2016, at 6:10 PM, Bruce Snyder
<
>>> >>> bruce.snyder@gmail.com>
>>> >>>>>> wrote:
>>> >>>>>>>>> Please find below a proposal for a new Incubator
podling
>>>named
>>> >>>>> Apache
>>> >>>>>>>>> RocketMQ, a fast, low latency, reliable,
scalable,
>>>distributed,
>>> >>>> easy
>>> >>>>>> to
>>> >>>>>>>> use
>>> >>>>>>>>> message-oriented middleware, especially
for processing large
>>> >>>> amounts
>>> >>>>>> of
>>> >>>>>>>>> streaming data.
>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>> The draft proposal can be found in the wiki
at the following
>>> >>> URL:
>>> >>>>>>>>> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%
>>> >>> 2F%
>>> >>>> 2Fwiki.apache.org%2Fincubator%2FRocketMQProposal&data=02%
>>> >>>> 7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597
>>> dcff%
>>> >>>> 7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%
>>> 7C636139597197176036&sdata=
>>> >>>> xjsmhUA5%2Ftnl5HnA4LtQnVGa5ddYybjaKIe3CRgS9S0%3D&reserved=0
>>> >>>>>>>>> Below, please find the text for the proposal
below.
>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>> Bruce
>>> >>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>> >>>> ---------
>>> >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
>>>general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>>> >>>>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail:
>>>general-help@incubator.apache.
>>> >>> org
>>> >>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>> >>> ---------
>>> >>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>>> >>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail:
>>>general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> --
>>> >>>> perl -e 'print
>>> >>>> 
>>>unpack("u30","D0G)U8V4\@4VYY9&5R\"F)R=6-E+G-N>61E<D\!G;6%I;\"YC;VT*"
>>> >>> );'
>>> >>>> ActiveMQ in Action: https://na01.safelinks.
>>> protection.outlook.com/?url=
>>> >>>> http%3A%2F%2Fbit.ly%2F2je6cQ&data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40m
>>> >>> icrosoft.com%
>>> >>>> 7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011
>>> >>>> db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176036&sdata=WObI4mpJLTWW%2Fg6%
>>> >>>> 2BNB3ERPQJ6JVFuM0u4fWySbWWpGI%3D&reserved=0
>>> >>>> Blog: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=
>>> >>>> http%3A%2F%2Fbsnyder.org%2F&data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40
>>> microsoft.com
>>> >>> %
>>> >>>> 7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011
>>> >>>> db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176036&sdata=9EWI%2FF%2FgDyaU9qybAVHRZ%
>>> >>>> 2FigY6o%2FjkAuZxilJ8uZMEg%3D&reserved=0 <https://na01.safelinks.
>>> >>>> protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fbruceblog.org%2F&
>>> >>>> data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7Cd12890186efe4c
>>> >>> 6e60c908d40597
>>> >>>> dcff%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%
>>> >>>> 7C636139597197176036&sdata=
>>> >>>> Vlc0l%2FVfE997etkGwBIVJ0wSQ6eDz3bPoWzeWLTl6X8%3D&reserved=0>
>>> >>>> Twitter: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=
>>> >>>> http%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2Fbrucesnyder&data=02%7C01%
>>> >>>> 7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%
>>> >>>> 7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%
>>> 7C636139597197176036&sdata=
>>> >>>> iCFOJzNIqieH5fJ%2BL6%2BxaVjgi8q2hiqjlc2VVerPr40%3D&reserved=0
>>> >>>>
>>> >>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Emmanuel Lecharny
>>>
>>> Symas.com
>>> directory.apache.org
>>>
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Gunnar
>> *If you think you can you can, if you think you can't you're right.*
>
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