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From Jim Apple <jbap...@cloudera.com>
Subject Re: Incoming Website Changes
Date Sun, 27 Nov 2016 21:16:22 GMT
One way to make The Guide clearer is to make The Policy more accurate.
As it is, The Policy is contradicted in various other places on the
lists or in the guide or in practice, so as a person who is trying to
understand what incubation and graduation are really like, The Policy
doesn't read as "The Policy" but as a single unreliable source in a
tangled web of practice and theory that includes The Guide.

Consider this single snippet from The Policy:

"Release plans are developed and excuted[sic] in public by the community.
(requirement on minimum number of such releases?)
Note: incubator projects are not permitted to issue an official
Release. Test snapshots (however good the quality) and Release plans
are OK.
Engagement by the incubated community with the other ASF communities,
particularly infrastructure@ (this reflects my personal bias that
projects should pay an nfrastructure[sic] "tax")."

Line 2 is a question. Who wrote it? What is the answer? Why is there
an embedded question in The Policy at all?

Line 3 seems contrary to actual practice.

Line 4 includes "my personal bias". Whose bias is that? Is that bias
now policy, or is it still just a personal opinion?

On Sat, Nov 26, 2016 at 7:35 PM, John D. Ament <johndament@apache.org> wrote:
> On Sat, Nov 26, 2016 at 10:19 PM Roman Shaposhnik <roman@shaposhnik.org>
> wrote:
>
>> On Sun, Nov 27, 2016 at 6:16 AM, John D. Ament <john.d.ament@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> > On Sat, Nov 26, 2016 at 6:04 PM Greg Stein <gstein@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >> On Sat, Nov 26, 2016 at 4:06 PM, John D. Ament <johndament@apache.org>
>> >> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > On Sat, Nov 26, 2016 at 4:57 PM Greg Stein <gstein@gmail.com>
wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> > > On Fri, Nov 25, 2016 at 8:26 AM, John D. Ament <
>> johndament@apache.org>
>> >> > > wrote:
>> >> > > >...
>> >> > >
>> >> > > > Graduation Guide
>> http://incubator.apache.org/guides/graduation.html
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > Added a link to the Maturity Model as a step to follow for
>> >> graduation.
>> >> > > >
>> >> > >
>> >> > > There has been past controversy on including that as a graduation
>> step.
>> >> > I'm
>> >> > > not clear that was a proper addition. Every discussion has said
>> that it
>> >> > can
>> >> > > be used as a *guide*, rather than as a checklist.
>> >> >
>> >> > I argued myself into adding this one.  While I don't disagree with
>> your
>> >> > perspective, every time a podling graduates it comes up from board
>> >> > members.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Some Directors != The Board
>> >>
>> >> The Board has never required the IPMC to use the APMM as a requirement
>> for
>> >> graduation. And, I don't recall the IPMC making that requirement either.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> >   The IPMC did not prepare the maturity model, yet somehow it
>> >> > applies to podlings planning to graduate.
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> Says who?
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> > I'll point out that the page itself states this is only a guide, not
a
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> On graduation.html, you list "Complete the Apache Project Maturity
>> Model"
>> >> as one of the preparation steps. That does not sound like a guide.
>> >>
>> >> policy.  So I don't think we've changed Incubator policy by adding a
>> link.
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> By listing it like that on the graduation page, it is de facto policy.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> > I could see it being stated as more of "compare the podlings actions
>> and
>> >> > behaviors against the maturity model.  I could also see it moving into
>> >> the
>> >> > "Other Issues" section of the guide instead of the checklist section.
>> >> >
>> >> > Thoughts?
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> Personally, I'd be fine with the link under "Other Issues". Something
>> like
>> >> "You may find the APMM a useful guide, to look at different factors in
>> your
>> >> podling's community."  (<waves-hand> on phrasing)
>> >>
>> >>
>> > I think at this point, we're just arguing semantics.  I've drafted the
>> > following for the other issues section.  I've removed it from the
>> checklist
>> > section.
>>
>> The feedback I consistently get from all the podlings I mentor is that
>> it would be really great if our documentation clearly separated policy
>> from advice. In fact, having two separate documents is what they
>> all seem to have in mind. Today we have guides which are pretty verbose
>> and mix the two.
>>
>
> I've gotten the same type of questions.  The problem is that this line
> already exists in the graduation "guide"
>
> This is just a guide. Policy is stated here. (where here is a link to the
> actual policy document)
>
> Anyway you can think to make it clearer?
>
>
>
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Roman.
>>
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>>

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